harriergirl
Landscape Designer
Martin ftw
as always
as always
-
Those wishing to contribute to the game by making suggestions (both small and large) should read the following before doing so.
Bushtarion largely runs completely automatically, and has been designed intentionally to be as self-maintaining as possible, with mechanics and balance considered at a completed point.
Please do not spend large amounts of time coming up with complex suggestions in the hope that they will be read and possibly implemented in the future, unless you just enjoy the discussion, theory-craft, and such.
The most likely changes will be rules-changes, specific number-tweaks to units, techs, and similar sorts of changes, and only if a large community consensus is reached as "proof" that a change would, overall, be an improvement, and are more likely to be done in batches, occassionally, not as a regular thing.
Mass route/unit balancing/make-more-interesting-ing
- Thread starter Polo
- Start date
Im not going to be heavily involved in this. But since all units and routes are being looked over id like to point out 1 unit that needs a little attension and have been so since its introduction. The unit in question is the Thief.
Currently there are 4 Land Grabbers in the game.
(Sorted by Int)
Geoes
Stealth Thief
Wheelbarrowers
Thiefs
Each unit has its own characteristics. Geo's is the base. Eta 5, fastest int. Stealth Thief is stealth and allows more flexibility and types of attacks. Wheelbarrowers is the starting unit to allow more attacks to happend faster in the game. However thieves has a different approach thief fast, awfully fast with eta 3, its a prinsiple that opens more attack options for thugs with their fast eta units. However, Thiefs have 1 fatal flaw that prevents it being very attractive. That is the Cost.
Geo's have a ratio of 0.1 Which means you need 10 Geo's or: 600,000 Worth of Funds to steal 1 Acre.
Master Thief has a ratio of 0.2 which means 5 Stealth Thief ir: 350,000 Worth of Funds to steal 1 Acre.
Wheel Barrowers has a ratio of 0,03 which means 33,3 Wheel Barrowers or 1,500,000 Funds to steal 1 Acre.
However next comes my point. Take a look at the cost to steal 1 acre for the Thief unit.
Thiefs has a ratio of 0,001 which means you need 1000 Thieves or 30,000,000 worth of funds to steal 1 acre.
Now considering how early game its possible to get thieves, its original intent was to allow fast early game stealing and quick attacks. But considering the costs of buying 1 acre at this stage, or simply the cost differance to steal acres with geos compared to thieves in a stage of build up which the start of the game is. The general cost of stealing with the thief unit is to high, much to high when compared with the alternative Wheel Barrowers or Geo Phys thieves. Add the risk (being adressed here with a new spy like unit) of the fact they steal last of all stealing units. It has made the thief unit to expensive in its usage, you cant attack in cooperation with others (save for flak boosts etc), you cant use thieves much in normal attacks save to gain 3% if i recall correctly. The situation however is stil, a cost ratio differance of: 29,400,000 between stealing with geo's or stealing with thievs is to massivly different. for the same amount of funds one can get: around 13500 more Gardeners as flak, or enough Geo's to steal: 49 More acres. If we look at those 49 and continue on, its easy to see Thieves are just to ineffective currently and its way to expensive to buy up enough thieves early game to use to get full grabs.
Edit: This also removes the early game advantage of thievs since their to expensive, which leads to the usage of petrol bombers mainly instead due to its more early game advantages.
Currently there are 4 Land Grabbers in the game.
(Sorted by Int)
Geoes
Stealth Thief
Wheelbarrowers
Thiefs
Each unit has its own characteristics. Geo's is the base. Eta 5, fastest int. Stealth Thief is stealth and allows more flexibility and types of attacks. Wheelbarrowers is the starting unit to allow more attacks to happend faster in the game. However thieves has a different approach thief fast, awfully fast with eta 3, its a prinsiple that opens more attack options for thugs with their fast eta units. However, Thiefs have 1 fatal flaw that prevents it being very attractive. That is the Cost.
Geo's have a ratio of 0.1 Which means you need 10 Geo's or: 600,000 Worth of Funds to steal 1 Acre.
Master Thief has a ratio of 0.2 which means 5 Stealth Thief ir: 350,000 Worth of Funds to steal 1 Acre.
Wheel Barrowers has a ratio of 0,03 which means 33,3 Wheel Barrowers or 1,500,000 Funds to steal 1 Acre.
However next comes my point. Take a look at the cost to steal 1 acre for the Thief unit.
Thiefs has a ratio of 0,001 which means you need 1000 Thieves or 30,000,000 worth of funds to steal 1 acre.
Now considering how early game its possible to get thieves, its original intent was to allow fast early game stealing and quick attacks. But considering the costs of buying 1 acre at this stage, or simply the cost differance to steal acres with geos compared to thieves in a stage of build up which the start of the game is. The general cost of stealing with the thief unit is to high, much to high when compared with the alternative Wheel Barrowers or Geo Phys thieves. Add the risk (being adressed here with a new spy like unit) of the fact they steal last of all stealing units. It has made the thief unit to expensive in its usage, you cant attack in cooperation with others (save for flak boosts etc), you cant use thieves much in normal attacks save to gain 3% if i recall correctly. The situation however is stil, a cost ratio differance of: 29,400,000 between stealing with geo's or stealing with thievs is to massivly different. for the same amount of funds one can get: around 13500 more Gardeners as flak, or enough Geo's to steal: 49 More acres. If we look at those 49 and continue on, its easy to see Thieves are just to ineffective currently and its way to expensive to buy up enough thieves early game to use to get full grabs.
Edit: This also removes the early game advantage of thievs since their to expensive, which leads to the usage of petrol bombers mainly instead due to its more early game advantages.
Last edited:
DarkSider
Tree Surgeon
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2007
- Messages
- 796
I see your point however thief unit is all rounder not just a starting unit.
You have a disavantage the fact that if you want to send pure thiefs for eta 3 attacks you need to make a big investment, and most often you can only afford to send one mob eta 3 as it would be too expensive to run with 5 mobs at eta 3. Having the ability to run 5 mobs eta 3 in the first days would probably give the route a huge early round advantage (10 ticks/attack instead 14 and extra 3% steal) plus you can use them for random free 3% grabs once spy's are out for the rest of the round.
I think a drop in cost would be good however, but the extra 3% grab should go.
You have a disavantage the fact that if you want to send pure thiefs for eta 3 attacks you need to make a big investment, and most often you can only afford to send one mob eta 3 as it would be too expensive to run with 5 mobs at eta 3. Having the ability to run 5 mobs eta 3 in the first days would probably give the route a huge early round advantage (10 ticks/attack instead 14 and extra 3% steal) plus you can use them for random free 3% grabs once spy's are out for the rest of the round.
I think a drop in cost would be good however, but the extra 3% grab should go.
That is true, but looking at the branch. Providing the change Polo listed to arsonists and the early spy comes through it looks something like this.
"Hooligans - Gives acess to stop PB runs and reduce dammage from other early Let incommings to alliance. A good unit to reduce dammage both in offence and deffence against lethal mobs early game."
"Heavy Thugs - Early game flak killers, reduce the amounts of flak needed to be killed."
These are the units that will be out at the very first stage. At this stage its rather easy to notice that Thugs main value during this stage is in the deffencive parts. But from this point on the amounts of flak aswell as more dangerous lethals start to appear making the survivability of a thug harder from this point on. The next units however starts to show the differance in value between the routes.
Petral Bombers & Jeeps:
This is the leading Thug branch for a reason. You get a very good Blocker and Flak killer in Petral bombers rather cheap and easy making it a very valuable branch in itself, but not only Petral Bombers you also get Jeeps, I dont think i need to explain to many that these 2 units on their own are valuable, together when comparing to the other branches its a clear first choice.
Nutter's and Attack Dogs:
Here changes are Proposed that will help elevate the branch more. But you currently have a very good NLT Flak unit in nutters and the cheapest Let flak unit in the game. While the branch devolopment cost dont warrant these units when compared to Petrol Side, the units atlest does give some early on options. And the changes suggested will help to make the branch less fragile aswell in this middle stage.
Thievs and Arsonists:
Now here comes part of my point. At this time its possible to devolop Thieves, most that have tried thugs can easily tell this is quick, faster the Petrol bombers Thievs are available, at this time flak wars are really stil at large, meaning the posibility of an advantage in land caps exists here. But due to the ratio, there is no real advantage at this point save pigging around for some 3% caps. Comparing this to say Petrol Bomber its no worth it. They steal last, and are to expensive. And with the Biker Change, Bikers can no longer tag along forcing the only other support unit to be the new Arsonist and Hooligans. Regardless this alone reduces the value of a thief in practical uses damaticly, meaning just the biker change alone warrants a Buff to the Thief unit to make it more viable, the branch has been suffering from this position since introduction. The proposed arsonist change however is a nice add, a change in thieves also would however make the branch more attractive when a compedative player is to consider "Which branch ?".
The 3% Can stay, due to the fact you cant easily team them up with Bikers anymore for full affect. The fastest you can go with bikers now would be eta 4. Not that big of a differance from eta 5, and much easier to deffend. A end of tick launch to reach eta 2 before notice and making it hard for many "end game lethals" to deffend is the main value of a thief unit. If its to be treated as a unit meant for the 3% piggy it reminds me a little how "Master Thief" (old name for stealth thief) was before its eta and int was changed. Tones of people just spying around to find someone to piggy.
"Hooligans - Gives acess to stop PB runs and reduce dammage from other early Let incommings to alliance. A good unit to reduce dammage both in offence and deffence against lethal mobs early game."
"Heavy Thugs - Early game flak killers, reduce the amounts of flak needed to be killed."
These are the units that will be out at the very first stage. At this stage its rather easy to notice that Thugs main value during this stage is in the deffencive parts. But from this point on the amounts of flak aswell as more dangerous lethals start to appear making the survivability of a thug harder from this point on. The next units however starts to show the differance in value between the routes.
Petral Bombers & Jeeps:
This is the leading Thug branch for a reason. You get a very good Blocker and Flak killer in Petral bombers rather cheap and easy making it a very valuable branch in itself, but not only Petral Bombers you also get Jeeps, I dont think i need to explain to many that these 2 units on their own are valuable, together when comparing to the other branches its a clear first choice.
Nutter's and Attack Dogs:
Here changes are Proposed that will help elevate the branch more. But you currently have a very good NLT Flak unit in nutters and the cheapest Let flak unit in the game. While the branch devolopment cost dont warrant these units when compared to Petrol Side, the units atlest does give some early on options. And the changes suggested will help to make the branch less fragile aswell in this middle stage.
Thievs and Arsonists:
Now here comes part of my point. At this time its possible to devolop Thieves, most that have tried thugs can easily tell this is quick, faster the Petrol bombers Thievs are available, at this time flak wars are really stil at large, meaning the posibility of an advantage in land caps exists here. But due to the ratio, there is no real advantage at this point save pigging around for some 3% caps. Comparing this to say Petrol Bomber its no worth it. They steal last, and are to expensive. And with the Biker Change, Bikers can no longer tag along forcing the only other support unit to be the new Arsonist and Hooligans. Regardless this alone reduces the value of a thief in practical uses damaticly, meaning just the biker change alone warrants a Buff to the Thief unit to make it more viable, the branch has been suffering from this position since introduction. The proposed arsonist change however is a nice add, a change in thieves also would however make the branch more attractive when a compedative player is to consider "Which branch ?".
The 3% Can stay, due to the fact you cant easily team them up with Bikers anymore for full affect. The fastest you can go with bikers now would be eta 4. Not that big of a differance from eta 5, and much easier to deffend. A end of tick launch to reach eta 2 before notice and making it hard for many "end game lethals" to deffend is the main value of a thief unit. If its to be treated as a unit meant for the 3% piggy it reminds me a little how "Master Thief" (old name for stealth thief) was before its eta and int was changed. Tones of people just spying around to find someone to piggy.
No-Dachi
Official Helper
Regarding the thief unit: Sekishi is dead on. The problem lies more in the amount of thieves needed than it's cost, imo. You can fix them by reducing the cost, but at the moment, with 1k needed per acre, they're easy as pie to block. You need so much flak to make this viable that you greatly reduce the routes potential to use them at their full potential, while still maintaining a decent amount of hools and TLs.
I understand the need for them to be easier to block, and more expensive to use; but please. Increase their rate of stealing to 0.01, and balance their cost according to that.
I understand the need for them to be easier to block, and more expensive to use; but please. Increase their rate of stealing to 0.01, and balance their cost according to that.
Adding more lethal units to the Protestor tech tree would just make it confusing, I think the current lethal units in it just need a bit of a boost.
Currently, hardly anyone in the game plays the terrorist or fanatic parts of the route whereas you get a load of POM players, if you made the extremists and terrorist route more powerful people might use them, but if you keep changing the units around nearly all of the pom players and loads of others will just go for the new routes.
Plus with fanatics having the ability just to fire last tick at the moment they only fire with extremists at the end of the battle which is fine, with your changes the extremists will only kill most things at a 1:1 ratio, whereas currently they can fire and actually kill stuff middle tick before fanatics do but last tick the route is very good.
I agree that the route needs a change but that could be as simple as fanatics having 4* health damage and 2* armour damage.
For the other side of the route all you need is for violent demonstrators to have a bit more health damage such as 2* and armour damage as 3*, they could be then changed to something like £25,000-£30,000 each.
Currently, hardly anyone in the game plays the terrorist or fanatic parts of the route whereas you get a load of POM players, if you made the extremists and terrorist route more powerful people might use them, but if you keep changing the units around nearly all of the pom players and loads of others will just go for the new routes.
Plus with fanatics having the ability just to fire last tick at the moment they only fire with extremists at the end of the battle which is fine, with your changes the extremists will only kill most things at a 1:1 ratio, whereas currently they can fire and actually kill stuff middle tick before fanatics do but last tick the route is very good.
I agree that the route needs a change but that could be as simple as fanatics having 4* health damage and 2* armour damage.
For the other side of the route all you need is for violent demonstrators to have a bit more health damage such as 2* and armour damage as 3*, they could be then changed to something like £25,000-£30,000 each.
Turnip2k
Harvester
There are several routes out there which need to be made more attractive to play - just doing that would increace peoples choices each round on what to play, on the ally setup, attacking tactics....it would bring a great deal more depth to the game.
extremist - hardly used. Pretty good last tick, but not good enough to make up for is disadvantages. Is also somewhat nullified by waves since you cant get away from being shot at by range units except for last ticking the very last incoming.
theif - nice land stealing unit, but thats its only advantage. Arsonists are nigh on useless, and just a gimmik.
nutter - AD are a nice flak units, but the route is still weak compared to PB / jeep.
VD - not seen many of these around recently. fast to tech to TL, and gets gurus for the flakwars, but thats all. (Outmatched by PB the moment they are teched)
extremist - hardly used. Pretty good last tick, but not good enough to make up for is disadvantages. Is also somewhat nullified by waves since you cant get away from being shot at by range units except for last ticking the very last incoming.
theif - nice land stealing unit, but thats its only advantage. Arsonists are nigh on useless, and just a gimmik.
nutter - AD are a nice flak units, but the route is still weak compared to PB / jeep.
VD - not seen many of these around recently. fast to tech to TL, and gets gurus for the flakwars, but thats all. (Outmatched by PB the moment they are teched)
Enrico
Tree Surgeon
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2007
- Messages
- 518
Vamps are a great route!! 
takes a bit of practice to handle, but when it clicks it clicks GOOD.
But one thing I have wondered about is why Snipers in the RPG route is eta 5?
They would e much more useful, especially in defense if they where eta 4.
They don't come out very early, are reasonably strong for their price but not overpowering.
takes a bit of practice to handle, but when it clicks it clicks GOOD.But one thing I have wondered about is why Snipers in the RPG route is eta 5?
They would e much more useful, especially in defense if they where eta 4.
They don't come out very early, are reasonably strong for their price but not overpowering.
Good on you Polo
Good on you Polo
Im very much impressed with the amount of effort which has gone into the understanding and various suggestions. Fantasy route I agree does seem to be lacking. Especially Vamps route; Serfs and skeltons dont seem to do justice as early units, especially with poor flak ratios and an inability to fire at range.
As mentioned by polo, i think fantasy should be removed and some units be transcribed onto other tech trees.
Good on you Polo
Im very much impressed with the amount of effort which has gone into the understanding and various suggestions. Fantasy route I agree does seem to be lacking. Especially Vamps route; Serfs and skeltons dont seem to do justice as early units, especially with poor flak ratios and an inability to fire at range.
As mentioned by polo, i think fantasy should be removed and some units be transcribed onto other tech trees.
LuckySports
Landscape Designer
cba to read all the replies.. I like some of the changes that have been implemented.. I still think CDs are useless tbh.. I'd rather put my score into something that will do more than kill a bit of flak on my last tick.. especially when CW/TD do SOO much better at it anyway..
Love the dragon idea for extremists \o/ Would be a pretty epic setup very weak middle-tick, but ridiculously strong last-tick.. Wouldn't mind seeing something like that implemented..
The dragon/Sorc route isn't really weak/useless.. Is a fairly powerful route, and I've seen it do some massive damage.. Its difficult to defend against.
And yea, Vamps are useless allied imo.. they are too slow, and show up too early in ally attacks.. ETA 5 makes them crap for rushing, showing up at eta 2 gives away your reals, and makes it easier to defend against rushes.. Not sure what you could do to balance them, or fit them in somewhere
Love the dragon idea for extremists \o/ Would be a pretty epic setup
very weak middle-tick, but ridiculously strong last-tick.. Wouldn't mind seeing something like that implemented..The dragon/Sorc route isn't really weak/useless.. Is a fairly powerful route, and I've seen it do some massive damage.. Its difficult to defend against.
And yea, Vamps are useless allied imo.. they are too slow, and show up too early in ally attacks.. ETA 5 makes them crap for rushing, showing up at eta 2 gives away your reals, and makes it easier to defend against rushes.. Not sure what you could do to balance them, or fit them in somewhere