Mass route/unit balancing/make-more-interesting-ing

[CFalcon]

I'd like new routes too. But with 17 different routes at the moment, and ~100 different units, I find it difficult to imagine that anything could be made that doesn't already exist in some form. Hence the need to play around with what already exists.
[size=-2]
Edit:
[15:07] <CF> MathM, i just slapped logic in the face with my last post
[15:08] <CF> see if you can jump on it
[15:09] <MathM> Sorry?
[15:09] <MathM> You mean you last post is un-comebackable?
[15:09] <CF> no
[15:09] <MathM> Or you mean the blatant flaw.
[15:09] <MathM> That if everything has been done
[15:10] <MathM> then nothing has to be changed
[15:10] <MathM>
[15:10] <CF> aye
[15:10] <CF> that one
[/size]

:'(

 

[MattM]

I'd like new routes too. But with 17 different routes at the moment, and ~100 different units, I find it difficult to imagine that anything could be made that doesn't already exist in some form. Hence the need to play around with what already exists.

If we have 17 different routes with ~100 different units that, according to this, cover everything already; then logic dictates we don't need to make any changes

 

[Antinoobkiller]

I think its just good that all routes have the diffrent powers/strenghts/weakness. Dosnt matter if one route totally sucks, ppl can still choose to play that route for fun or try something new or so it becomes more hard. Its not anyones choice to tell me how to play this game or what route to play.

All these suggestions is too much, they are not needed. WHY ? becuase not everyone play to be the best. Some ppl just wanna play. Even if it would make things better it would only affect the ppl who wanted these changes. No one else cares about and dont even think about them. Sure I know some routes are just crap but I play them to show the pros that you actually can play them, its just harder and more work. And I like when things are challengeing for me. its not hard work to play SO as solo. its damn easy. Nerf that route maybe ? NO I dont want this much changes to the game, Would just spoil my tactis and fun.

I really hope Azzer thinks for all players best and enjoyment and not just the oldies. and how game is at top lvl. Game need new and more players not new changes.

 

[f0xx]

And that is why the majority of people don't take you seriously, f0xx.

Very constructive, especially coming from an IRC op :roll:

 

[Garrett]

TIK TAK!

I agree with ANK

OK OK

ok

p.s. not really. there is a core point that he makes that is worth discussing.

 

[MattM]

And that is why the majority of people don't take you seriously, f0xx.

Very constructive, especially coming from an IRC op :roll:

In the same way as your post was completely non-constructive.

 

[f0xx]

And that is why the majority of people don't take you seriously, f0xx.

Very constructive, especially coming from an IRC op :roll:

In the same way as your post was completely non-constructive.

It was constructive criticism, since in your previous post you said that balance is not important and imho, balance is the MOST important thing in ANY game.

I cencirely ask myself if all those fantasy route defenders actually realise that we want those routes (vamp/dragon) to be boosted (in different ways), since they are lacking a lot at the moment (vamp a bit, dragon a lot)... you guys are just arguing against yourselves...

 

[CFalcon]

Agreed, Azzer shouldn't just cater for oldies/pros at the expense of the new/casual player.

But if certain changes can be made that make the game more appealing for oldies and make them stay on longer (with the experience, community and revenue that they bring), and these changes aren't in any way damaging to new/casual players, then why not make them?

It's a two sided argument. Don't just cater for oldies. But don't just cater for newbies either. Route balancing ultimately has very little to do with attracting new players.

 

[Garrett]

TIK TAK!

OK OK

While I don't agree with ANK, there are some core points worth discussing.

 

[CFalcon]

Dragging this thread away from "oh noes, change" and back to the specific suggestions; clearly there's a lot of opposition to the breaking up of fantasy, that's well established so let's drop it and look at the other suggestions.

Packet Analysing. Anyone have a problem with that?
Boost to extremists. Problems?
Stealth gardeners instead of chemical sprayers?
Bunker changes? (minus the vampire bit)
Slight puppet buff?
Bikers firing after PoMs again
Arsonist replacement
Private replacement
EMP/Para change
Harrier boost
CSs back

These should hardly illicit "omg noes, that'll completely change the game" or "you're just thinking of the number crunchers" outbursts.

 

[Silence]

I think its just good that all routes have the diffrent powers/strenghts/weakness. Dosnt matter if one route totally sucks, ppl can still choose to play that route for fun or try something new or so it becomes more hard. Its not anyones choice to tell me how to play this game or what route to play.

All these suggestions is too much, they are not needed. WHY ? becuase not everyone play to be the best. Some ppl just wanna play. Even if it would make things better it would only affect the ppl who wanted these changes. No one else cares about and dont even think about them. Sure I know some routes are just crap but I play them to show the pros that you actually can play them, its just harder and more work. And I like when things are challengeing for me. its not hard work to play SO as solo. its damn easy. Nerf that route maybe ? NO I dont want this much changes to the game, Would just spoil my tactis and fun.

I really hope Azzer thinks for all players best and enjoyment and not just the oldies. and how game is at top lvl. Game need new and more players not new changes.

Except bunker as they are imba ezzmode.

 

[MattM]

Did you just say... "screw balance"?

I can't really take a post which contains this phrase in it seriously...

Can I ask why other pointless posts on this thread have been deleted and this completely non-constructive pile of trash is still here?

 

[Matthew]

But I thoroughly *enjoy* playing Vampires it would be sad to see the fantasy routes scrapped altogether

Can you give us some logical reason to why do you "enjoy" playing vamps Tana? The route's balance at the moment is stupid. It is hard as hell to play it. A skilled player who is playing the vamp route can do so much better with another route. Same goes with dragons.

PS. I got a strange feeling you like to play them just because of their name

Well the reason you want vampires removed is for balance? The game isn't entirely about competative play. The reason i enjoy vampire/sorc route is the same reason i enjoy using shotguns on FPS games. They aren't the best weapon for most situations and are never the most effective. But it is hella fun to shoot somebody in the face from point blank, just as it is fun to have your vampires nibble on some terrorists or have your dragons burn some military.

The point is the "casual" gamer cares not for balance, they want fun. Just because these routes do not fit into the competative nature of some of the players doesn't mean they should be dismissed. The add a new dynamic to the game which I really enjoy. Its more effort to remove the routes now than just leave them for people to play them.

You do not need a reason for finding something fun, sometimes you just appreciate something or enjoy it.

 

[f0xx]

But I thoroughly *enjoy* playing Vampires it would be sad to see the fantasy routes scrapped altogether

Can you give us some logical reason to why do you "enjoy" playing vamps Tana? The route's balance at the moment is stupid. It is hard as hell to play it. A skilled player who is playing the vamp route can do so much better with another route. Same goes with dragons.

PS. I got a strange feeling you like to play them just because of their name

Well the reason you want vampires removed is for balance? The game isn't entirely about competative play. The reason i enjoy vampire/sorc route is the same reason i enjoy using shotguns on FPS games. They aren't the best weapon for most situations and are never the most effective. But it is hella fun to shoot somebody in the face from point blank, just as it is fun to have your vampires nibble on some terrorists or have your dragons burn some military.

The point is the "casual" gamer cares not for balance, they want fun. Just because these routes do not fit into the competative nature of some of the players doesn't mean they should be dismissed. The add a new dynamic to the game which I really enjoy. Its more effort to remove the routes now than just leave them for people to play them.

You do not need a reason for finding something fun, sometimes you just appreciate something or enjoy it.

Heh, that is where actually the problem comes from. I don't want to route removed... I want it boosted. The same can be said about dragons. So in this situation, you vamp/dragon lovers are arguing AGAINS someone who wants to give more power to the routes you like to play...

 

[Azzer]

Well I can pretty much stop some of the needless debate;

* The fantasy route will not be removed.

So that then leaves only one direction for number-crunchers;

* How do we improve the fantasy route, keeping the theme of "self-replicating undead army" as the "angle" for the undead side, and perhaps inventing a new "angle" for the magick (with a k!) side... or would it not be ok to have another "generalist" route (the thing about generalist routes is we don't have to be stuck with just 1 in the entire game, a few generalist routes mean people have a few "themes" to pick for their units without having to specialise or focus on a particular playstyle).

So let's not argue about how, why, or if the fantasy route should or should not be removed, and instead analyse Polo's other unit suggestions and work, and try to think of similar suggestions for whichever units in both branches of the fantasy route may need some balancing work. His units he's "stolen" from the fantasy route can instead become brand new units that are merely "similar" to those from the fantasy route (replicating them to a degree but keeping the theme of whatever route Polo is putting them in... the protestor route can and will not have "magical units" like dragons, but it could have a unit with similar ranges/targetting/damage as dragons if it was themed as a protestory unit no problem).

 

[ollie|]

i had 2 ideas to improve the vampire route,

serf changed back to disable nlt, making them useful at a round start since they arent useful for attacks when spy are out

skelies fire after zombies, make them used as a sweeper, since zombie can kill more flak would mean solos can defend themselves better

not sure if this would unbalance the route, but would make it easier to play

 

[Garrett]

i think the change to let and firing before sgts is huge and should see a major difference to vamp players hunting so's. (if they want to land that is)

 

[ollie|]

hmmm thats true, maybe giving them a bonus against sgt but disabling them means you can use them against everyone and you dont need spy to do it, but then maybe upping the price slightly since it would make them pretty good

 

[ollie|]

had an idea for harrier route aswell, since its basicly been replaced by vamps

if the harrier and ranger techs were switched round, so you can get a decent armour killer fairly fast, and then rangers cost increased as well as their stats being improved so they can kill a wider ranged of units

would mean that its a more useful route and it does its own things (quick armour killer and a decent unit that targets pure let)

 

[Souls]

had an idea for harrier route aswell, since its basicly been replaced by vamps

if the harrier and ranger techs were switched round, so you can get a decent armour killer fairly fast, and then rangers cost increased as well as their stats being improved so they can kill a wider ranged of units

would mean that its a more useful route and it does its own things (quick armour killer and a decent unit that targets pure let)

The problem with the route is more in the units than anything else; you have rangers, sturdy but slow LETs that can take out SAs, Thugs, and most health-based routes, and you have the harrier, a fairly quick firing heavy armour hitter, but can't take damage. Neither of those units is special. Vamps and SAs take out all the other health-based routes, and RPGs and strikers dominate the armour.