PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

[damfrankie]

2 defense reports from me today:

1:

[close] 989,844 allied Hippy attacked, distracting 888,605 hostile staff.
[close] 250,000 allied Yob attacked, disabling 355,532 hostile staff.
[close] 950,000 allied Heavy Thug attacked, killing 3,773,038 hostile staff.
[close] 12,699 hostile Geo-Phys Thief stole 410 land. [55] tree. [340] bush. [7] flower. [8] grass. [0] uncultivated.

so, if 950 k HT's kill 3.770.000 flak than how much killing will 2.000 k HT's do ? My math says it will be enough to stop a 5 mil inc mob, but......

2:

[close] 989,844 allied Hippy attacked, distracting 847,406 hostile staff.
[close] 250,000 allied Yob attacked, disabling 354,347 hostile staff.
[close] 2,000,000 allied Heavy Thug attacked, killing 3,836,257 hostile staff.
[close] 6,258 hostile Geo-Phys Thief stole 357 land. [48] tree. [293] bush. [7] flower. [9] grass. [0] uncultivated.

I am totally lost here !; I am a mathematician; how can I calculate attacks and defense if its all random !!????

 

[f0xx]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

You need sweeper after the thugs.

Noob mistake number 1: you are solo robo and buy a lot of SDs
Noob mistake number 2: you are solo military and buy lots of privs
Noob mistake number 3: you are solo thug and buy a lot of thugs

I love people like you btw, if there is noone like you then there will be nowhere top allies to get land from

On a second note you can see that your first attacker was not very skilled, second one was better though.

 

[Mattheus]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

It's not random. Your problem is lack of a sweeper.
Simply put, since geos make up such a small percentage of the attacking mob, only a very small percentage of the HT's will actually fire on them. And seeing as geos are considerably harder to kill then gards they often can slip through even if all the flak dies. This is where a sweeper comes in, a unit which fires after your main flak stopper to block/kill the remaining geos that slipped through.
Thats the problem with thugs early round, you have nothing to sweep up after your HT's fire so even though they get great ratios against flak, as you can see geos can easily slip through. For that reason you could stock up on yobs, and have them as your main flak blocker, and the HT's as a sweeper. Unfortunately as you well know that will be costly, but its either that or lose land really. Some people just stock up on HT's aware of the fact that they could lose land and just hope the sheer number of them will scare away any attackers. But now that more scary units are coming into play HT's are suddenly nowhere near as scary.

Edit - Damn you f0xx

 

[pinpower]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

yeah, dont rely on the HTs to actually stop the flak...i dont know the ratio HTs do on flak (im sure someone will post it) but they will basically mop up (up to that amount) what is left of the flak....you need hippies/yobs to stop the flak and hopefully the HTs will stop the geos/wheelies...

at least thats how im thinking...seems to be working for me so far...

 

[Souls]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

On a second note you can see that your first attacker was not very skilled, second one was better though.

:lol:

 

[kyx]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

Alright. I'm back to explain this phenomenon, as I am a mathematician too.

Let's have an example.

Pretend that
99% of mob ---> gardeners
1% of mob ----> geo-phys thief

So, when your heavy thugs fire, 99% of the damage goes to the gardeners, and 1% of the damage pops over to whack the geo-phys thieves. So far so good, right?

What you are thinking is that the firepower that is not used on gardeners will go to the geo-phys thieves. Quite sadly, the game does not work that way. If only 25% of the firepower is needed to kill the gardeners, then the other 74% is just wasted and does not go over to the geo-phys thieves. So, if 950k heavy thugs are enough to kill 3.8m flak, the other 1.05m heavy thugs don't attack the geo-phys thieves. Most of their firepower just gets wasted.

 

[nopjes]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

I am a big fan of this system
it brings more skill to the game!

 

[pinpower]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

Alright. I'm back to explain this phenomenon, as I am a mathematician too.

Let's have an example.

Pretend that
99% of mob ---> gardeners
1% of mob ----> geo-phys thief

So, when your heavy thugs fire, 99% of the damage goes to the gardeners, and 1% of the damage pops over to whack the geo-phys thieves. So far so good, right?

What you are thinking is that the firepower that is not used on gardeners will go to the geo-phys thieves. Quite sadly, the game does not work that way. If only 25% of the firepower is needed to kill the gardeners, then the other 74% is just wasted and does not go over to the geo-phys thieves. So, if 950k heavy thugs are enough to kill 3.8m flak, the other 1.05m heavy thugs don't attack the geo-phys thieves. Most of their firepower just gets wasted.

im almost certain you are confused here...targeting doesn't work so that a certain percent of your units fire at say gardies and the rest fire at geos...its done by class...so as Geos and gardies are both INN then 100% of the Heavy thugs will fire at everything...so nothing is wasted...

If only 25% of the firepower is needed to kill the gardeners, then the other 74% is just wasted and does not go over to the geo-phys thieves.

yeah thats definately wrong...if there is say 1m HTs, and they are defending against 1m gardies and 100k geos...if 300k of the HTs kill all the gardies then all of the rest of the HTs will fire on the geos...



as people have said the reason why a mob of HTs will kill say 5 million flak on one attack and then let through a mob of 4m is to do with a lack of sweeper...

 

[Garrett]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

i believe what he was getting at is this:

HT fire 70 LET 30 ALL

of that 30% firing on all the mob is made of INN. So all 30% is firing on INN. Of the INN 99% is gards and 1% is thieves

so 99% of the 30% of HT fire on the gard group and the 1% of the 30% fires on thieves

so in his example maybe only 25% of the 30% is actually needed to clear gards. however, since gards is 99% of the incomming group, 99% of the 30% is dedicated to gards.

This holds true as long as the logic for targetting continues in implementation downstream (i.e. when the units actually fire) beyond just assigning primary/secondary/tritiary targets.



and I'm not declaring myself a mathematician as many mathematicians seem to have inconsistencies in this thread

 

[pinpower]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

no...heavy thugs target ALL...

Heavy Thug LET Kills [close] ALL

that is why he is confused...

 

[Garrett]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

sweet - glad i didn't make any claims of title

 

[kyx]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

Gosh. How irritating. Looks like I have to explain myself again.

I did not say that a certain number fires as gards and a certain number fires and geos. If you read closely, you will se that what I said it that a certain percentage of the DAMAGE goes to the gards and a certain percentage of the DAMAGE goes to geos.

There is damage wasted. When some damage goes to gards and some damage goes to geos, if the percentage of damage goes that goes to gards is more than enough to kill the gards, then the extra damage that is not required to kill the gards will be wasted.

yeah thats definately wrong...if there is say 1m HTs, and they are defending against 1m gardies and 100k geos...if 300k of the HTs kill all the gardies then all of the rest of the HTs will fire on the geos...

Sorry, this statement is so screwed up that I have to quote it.

Firstly, DEFINITELY.

Secondly, you are getting incoherent. As you said before, it is not that a certain number fires on this and a certain number fires on that, so why contradict yourself? In this case, 10/11 of the HT's damage will go on gards, yes, it is overkill, and the extra damage is wasted. The other 1/11 of the damage will go to geos.

Thanks to Garrett for trying to help explain it.

 

[f0xx]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

I hate to say it but.... kyx is right

His first post is absolutely correct too and explains exactly how the system works.

 

[Welshie]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

http://www.bushtarion.com/forums_old/vi ... lak&t=5284

Quoted for truth

 

[pinpower]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

okay, ill admit im wrong...but this is still wrong?

then the other 74% is just wasted and does not go over to the geo-phys thieves

 

[Garrett]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

as it relates strictly to damage, he is correct.


99% fires on gards - 1% fires on thieves


99% fired (ignore these numbers, they are here for the sake of argument) doing 100k hp's worth of damage

to kill the gards only 25k hps worth of damage was needed, but damn those thugs rained down the pain... but the 75k hps of damage was just overkill and left divots in the ground...

the 1% fires and did 500 hp worth of damage but it takes 2.5k worth of damage to stop all the geos

the geos look at the huge ass divot the 75k of overkill and laugh with pockets full of acres

(my apologies if i went from boarderline correct, to absolutely wrong)

 

[pinpower]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

ahhhhh, okay i get it now...

yeah my bad i was just not thinking about it right

 

[DR4545]

Re: PLAIN STUPID HEAVY THUGS !!!

Yeah ... in that BR well under 1% of the HTs fired on the Geos. (probably 0.23 - 0.4 % )

So 5,200 HTs or so fired on however many geos (I tried 10k for my calculation) and failed to block.

The other 1,945,800 HTs utterly murdered 3.8M gards. See how that worked?

There is a tiny random factor in each BR, but it is very very minor. All troops perform consistently and are relatively predictable.