For the silent majority

[MattM]

As some people will know, I'm not usually inclined to post in this forum, I usually keep complaints to IRC and moan in there. But recent events have changed that a little.

Firstly, I'd like to say that I really like this game and the community- anything that can keep people addicted for so long, with so simple (and on the outside bland as it were) a mechanic says a lot for the people playing and the levels the game can be enjoyed on.

Recently it's been clear that there's an overt ploy to change this community by removing 'undesirable elements' to better the community as a whole. This is all very well, were it not for the rather messy and unprofessional execution (a bit of McCarthy witch-hunting perhaps?), which rather tarnishes the feeling- sour in the mouth as it were. Let it not be said that I am disagreeing with the ends, mainly the means.

It seems even more uncouth when it is apparent that some of similar ilk seem to have slipped the net. From my experiences in game, from perusing forums and from monitoring the IRC channel, I have to say that a minority of the community- not just those who were 'caught out' by the 'honey-trap' (and I do not wish to insult their intelligence by suggesting I mean said comment- hence apostrophes)- but others too, whether causing trouble in #bushtarion in various means or trolling needlessly on endless 'politics' threads on here.

I think that the community as a whole needs to take a very good look at itself from the top echelons down, experienced and the new. If we're to make this work like it once did, we need to change in our attitudes and the way we handle things. I don't want to see this game die- too many characters are leaving one way or another and this can only have a negative effect on Bushtarion.

This isn't aimed at an individual or group per se. This is aimed at you- yes, you who have read this- the wheels are falling off, so we need to tighten the screws.

 

[Bunion]

But surely posting here would relinquish our roles as the silent majority?!

Oh shi...

 

[Azzer]

It's a trap! But... a... sort of... friendly one And I do agree with MattM.

 

[Alcibiades]

I'm neither silent, nor a majority but I'm inclined to agree with most of what Mr. MattM has said. Sure, some of the more virulent members have been removed, but that doesn't mean they were the only offenders (obviously given my remaining presence here amongst others).

 

[Dafydd]

Restrospective justice, is justice nonetheless.

Azzer's own goodwill and patience lead him down this path. While I agree a number of the commuity needs to stop before posting, think before flaming, and have patience when dealing with the help section; the primary issue remains that Bushtarion 'officialdom' needs to dance to the same tune.

The fact that they got banned for what you claim is 'uncouth' is understandable, but do not forget that over the course of time, a number of offences were let slip which they *should* and indeed *could* have been banned for. The fact that these finals skirmishes with the Az-man broke the admins patience makes it - in the short term - appear a witchhunt, when in reality this was simply the closure of a wider picture.

As Azzer has himself noted, the forums are already a better place to be, much more patient and a number of people who wouldn't normaly post, are now doing so.

 

[Leah]

Maybe I'm just naive (yes, I know what an invitation that was ), but I didn't see it as a trap when I read it. Azzer often discusses things with people in private, out of the public eye. However, when he or another mod removes/moves/edits a post or, heaven forbid, bans someone, everyone freaks out and starts *****ing. It's too easy for someone to say "No one spoke to me about this!" or "They were mean in their message, they didn't really want to talk with me, they just wanted to pick on me because they don't like my opinions!" after they've been banned, and with no evidence to the contrary people jump on the bandwagon and the very problem Azzer wants to address quickly flares up again. This way it was right there for everyone to see. Everyone could see the people who made well thought out, rational responses vs the ones that just had to get all the insults, swearing, and superiority in there. There was no hiding who handled it in which manner. Perhaps some will see it as hypocritical that he handled it in a public post rather than private messages and outright banning without all the talk, but from reading over past posts over similar situations I think in this case experience told him, and should have told everyone, that it would not have turned out as well had that method been employed again. There is such a thing as learning from one's mistakes, and in Azzer's case, handling things in private was clearly a mistake for this particular issue.

Just my two cents, I saw it more as transparency than bait.

 

[Bahnsen]

Maybe I'm just naive (yes, I know what an invitation that was ), but I didn't see it as a trap when I read it. Azzer often discusses things with people in private, out of the public eye. However, when he or another mod removes/moves/edits a post or, heaven forbid, bans someone, everyone freaks out and starts *****ing. It's too easy for someone to say "No one spoke to me about this!" or "They were mean in their message, they didn't really want to talk with me, they just wanted to pick on me because they don't like my opinions!" after they've been banned, and with no evidence to the contrary people jump on the bandwagon and the very problem Azzer wants to address quickly flares up again. This way it was right there for everyone to see. Everyone could see the people who made well thought out, rational responses vs the ones that just had to get all the insults, swearing, and superiority in there. There was no hiding who handled it in which manner. Perhaps some will see it as hypocritical that he handled it in a public post rather than private messages and outright banning without all the talk, but from reading over past posts over similar situations I think in this case experience told him, and should have told everyone, that it would not have turned out as well had that method been employed again. There is such a thing as learning from one's mistakes, and in Azzer's case, handling things in private was clearly a mistake for this particular issue.

Just my two cents, I saw it more as transparency than bait.

I agree. I also want to add on a little bit.

What Azzer posted was not a "trap." He laid it out on the table. Those that haven't been "caught out" by it obviously took the msg and we can only hope that they have learnt from it. Time will tell.

Those that read the post and decided they were above it, posted what they posted. Due to ignoring the msg have been dealt with accordingly.

To read, then reply with venom I think is arrogant and stupid. As I posted in the other thread I agree with the action that has been taken.

 

[MattM]

I don't think anyone's suggested it was a 'trap' (see bracketed comment in my original post), but there's no denying it was messy from beginning to end.

As I also stated in my original post- that was not an attack on an individual or group- I am concerned that Leah/Bahnsen seem to have taken my thread as an attack on Azzer. Make no mistake it wasn't- it was an attack on everyone.

 

[Twigley]

People who act like maniacs / idiots and people who insult Azzer to no end have been banned before one by one and in recent times and also very publicaly.

I would hardly call it a *recent* ploy.
They had many more chances than others to stop laying into him.

Any other game admin would of account lock / forum locked them the instant they insulted their shoes.


I think the other thread was locked and about to die out, and this one will just bring the same rubbish.
People got the point in what other people already said.
Lock >:/

 

[MattM]

I'm not sure it's your position to play admin, Twigley. One of the many issues we see on forums, par example. Besides, the other thread is merely a subplot to mine.

 

[Twigley]

The other thread, which was locked and full of sh!t, was a subplot to your thread?

Go on?

 

[MattM]

Yes. If you read the thread, you might discover so.

 

[Alcibiades]

I think the other thread was locked and about to die out, and this one will just bring the same rubbish.
People got the point in what other people already said.
Lock >:/

So that would be the attitude adjustment MattM was talking about.

*whistles innocently*

 

[Dimitar]

 

[MattM]

I think the other thread was locked and about to die out, and this one will just bring the same rubbish.
People got the point in what other people already said.
Lock >:/

So that would be the attitude adjustment MattM was talking about.

*whistles innocently*

Perhaps. It's by no means the only way it manifests itself.

I feel I'll elaborate for the benefit of stopping pointless spam/troll that will probably accumulate (as ever, this is forums lest we forget, see original post). The other thread of Azzer's served a purpose, it fulfilled its purpose and was full of some hateful messages, and things that needed to be cut off. This thread has not been set up in an attempt to draw it undesirable response- it was set up as the basis for a discussion and for people to take a damn good look at themselves.

The issue is that there are still members of the community who cannot grasp this, let alone partake in it. Thus the original post. It really is lamentable that people don't even make an effort.

 

[Twigley]

So, to keep me laughing, what you are saying is - you dug up issues from a thread that was:

* discussed.
* locked.

* You based your thread name on that very thread.
* You then took another dig at Azzer / bring it all up again saying how it was unprofesional and messy (Which was again already discussed in that thread, and which Azzer has said on IRC he finds to a point soul destroying when he gets all this criticism). Also an issue that ... had already been discussed.

And then, after it feels like a nice refresh of some of the bad blood gone, you then bring us doooowwwwn, with your "people have escaped the net" rubbish - trying to scare monger people into thinking they have to behave as if they are in Nazi Germany.

You do not need to tell us what to do, we already get it.
I'm not sure it's your position to play admin, MattM.

Edit:

I think the other thread was locked and about to die out, and this one will just bring the same rubbish.
People got the point in what other people already said.
Lock >:/

So that would be the attitude adjustment MattM was talking about.

*whistles innocently*

This thread will bring flames and is based on a thread that was locked.
Bannings shouldnt be discussed publically iirc, and this thread shouldnt of been made, imo.

Edit / Edit: I havn't even posted on these forums properly in a long while, while i have been watching all the fools constantly flame each other outside politics thread, and my new favourite quote is "Don't reply to the posters name".

 

[CFalcon]

I don't think you can really change people's attitudes and how people behave, particularly in an environment where there are no real repurcussions. All internet games will have their fair share of arrogant or helpful, abusive or friendly, stupid or intelligent members.

People think this is a recent problem, but I can remember people being all of the above things when I first joined forums 5 or so years ago, and I can remember people receiving bans back then too.

If we can't change people's attitudes, then all we can do is decide as a community where the line should be drawn between acceptable and ban-able, and make that line perfectly clear, so it doesn't matter what people's attitudes are. They will post depending on where that line is, not on their attitude.

I think the recent 'event' did that very efficiently and sent a clear public message that there is a line, and that it's located somewhere just back from where Garret and co. were putting themselves.

A shift in the entire community's attitude would be great, but I think unachievable. A far more realistic objective is to keep clarifying where the line is.

 

[MattM]

I think the other thread was locked and about to die out, and this one will just bring the same rubbish.
People got the point in what other people already said.
Lock >:/

So that would be the attitude adjustment MattM was talking about.

*whistles innocently*

This thread will bring flames and is based on a thread that was locked.
Bannings shouldnt be discussed publically iirc, and this thread shouldnt of been made, imo.

This thread will bring flames if people keep dragging them up- which is the point. People can't withhold themselves any more- nothing good can happen because there is no self-control.

* You based your thread name on that very thread.

Yes, I thought it would be humorous. And it was.

* You then took another dig at Azzer / bring it all up again saying how it was unprofesional and messy (Which was again already discussed in that thread, and which Azzer has said on IRC he finds to a point soul destroying when he gets all this criticism). Also an issue that ... had already been discussed.

I've made it clear that this isn't an attack on Azzer at least twice already. Further I've discussed this thread with him on IRC. I don't deny I think that the approach was messy- and have said as such. He doesn't seem to have an issue with the thread though.

I think the other thread was locked and about to die out, and this one will just bring the same rubbish.

This thread is completely fine- although you seem to be desperate to drag it down into the mire by bringing 'the same rubbish', like other threads have been by others- to be locked. These forums ARE NOT HERE TO KEEP YOU LAUGHING- there's spam/general discussions for that. The sooner people understand this, the better.

This is my point. I don't want to see this argument on this thread- though it adds fuel to my case in hand. People who try to make this community a better place are being blocked at every turn.

 

[Twigley]

Who exactly are being blocked?
And.
Who exactly are blocking them?
I keep hearing this "people" word been thrown around but havn't talked to him on IRC yet.
I see after the other thread people are happy, but do you have another set there you needed to make this thread for?

And these Forums are not here to keep us laughing yet you make a thread name which you think was hillarious, then expect anyone to take its content without a degree of caution when it replicates that of a locked one?
-

You are also not getting my general point.
The thing is that you are brigning up the fact you think the methods are "unprofessional" is the very problem i have with some people.

Bringing up how you perceive a weakness in how the admin has acted, ISN'T HELPFUL (Look i can use caps too, and it isn't very mature nor does it make the point stand any firmer).

My problem is that the message that Azzer's banning's sent out were so powerful that making more threads where you are effectively telling people to act good because you love the game, is diluting his original message, *not* fortyfying it.

Edit/

People got the point's.
A thread was locked.
You made another one discussing the exact same things.
You are surprised someone is annoyed we have issues from a locked thread posted again.

 

[Dimitar]

Did I not call you retards already.. stop fighting over something so stupid