Mass route/unit balancing/make-more-interesting-ing – Take 2

[Polo]

I spoke to Azzer a few days back and he said he'd look at making some unit changes for next round and that I should remake/update my original post (see: http://www.bushtarion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2490) and he'd thing about it.

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First off I'll post a summary of each route covering its current state and what I'd like to change overall:

Protestor Route

VD – Currently it is a Prot/Thug hybrid route. It lacks any real targets but is good overall. I'd like to give it more target potential as well as give it more of an identity with its own units rather than stealing T/TL from Thugs but still be Prot/Thug hybrid style.

Pom – Currently it's a little too strong overall. Should be less effective against health/armour combo units. Biker rushes also need to be addressed.

Last-tick – Currently it is rubbish. It's unplayable at range and not powerful enough at close.

Thug – Biker rushes need to be addressed. Could do with slightly more target potential.

PB – Pretty much fine as it is in combination with the above points.

Dogs – Need to be more appealing so PB isn't an automatic choice. Nutters should be useful.

Thief – Need to be more appealing so PB isn't an automatic choice. Arsonists should be useful.

Military

Striker – Currently it's slightly too hard to kill.

RPG – Currently it's quite a reasonable route.

Ranger – Currently it's too weak. Should be able to survive a bit better.

Robotics – CDs should be useful.

PA – Fine as it is.

Shields – Ok as it is.

Stuns – Ok as it is. Could do with Nanos being replaced/better.

Special Ops – Could do with Chemical Sprayers being replaced.

Bunkers – Too hard to kill currently.

SAs – Good as it is.

Puppets – Good as it is but could be changed slightly to be more useful in an alliance.

Fantasy

Vamps – Ok as it is. Could do with a unit that fires every tick.

Sorcs – Underpowered currently. Could do with a unit that fires every tick. Should be slightly less “Thugish”. Needs its own niche.

Generic – New spy like intelligence to promote more interesting (lethal) flak wars.

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Protestor Changes

VD

The aim of the VD sub-route seems to be a Prot-Thug hybrid. Which is definitely a nice idea. However, it's just far too similar to Thug and doesn't offer anything really special whilst missing out on some key areas from both routes and not gaining much in return. What I suggest is to remove the T/TL units from this route and replace them with the two units outlined below as well as a small modification to the VD unit. This should allow for the Prot-Thug hybrid whilst still providing something a bit “special” compared to the other sub-routes in those routes.

Name: Violent Demonstrator [£15,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [close]
Targets: NLD / NLT / LET
Stats: *** / * / * / ***
ETA: 2
Initiative: 160
Route(s): Protestor
Improved health allows the unit to be better LET flak. Altered targeting provides slightly greater anti-pom damage as well as an early counter to mass Gurus, SGT and Small Droids.

T/TL units need more thought. I'm thinking an early firing unit that targets INN only to replace TL and a Sorcerer type that that targets ALL to replace T.

Pom

This route is pretty balanced and has a good purpose. However, it's very imbalanced against the Biker unit and the Pom unit is slightly overpowered. So, I suggest the following alteration to the Pom unit as well as a change to Bikers (see later):

Name: Political Mastermind [£40,500]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: NLD
Attack type: Distracts [all]
Targets: LET/INN
Stats: ** / **** / ***** / *
ETA: 4
Initiative: 180
Route(s): Protestor
The route is currently far too strong against health based units, armoured units as well as units that have a bit of both. Poms can counter health and health/armour hybrids and HV can counter armour. This change makes poms stronger against health only whilst keeping HV's strength against armour but removes the dominance it has over health/armour hybrid units.

Last-tick

Whilst the Extremist sub-route is a nice idea, it just doesn't work. There are too many flaws. Nobody can, or even should be, active enough to really make full use of the route. It's impossible to attack alone, something which every route should be able to do, imo (excluding flakking). It doesn't even do what it does very effectively. So, my suggestion is to remove the 3 units from this sub-route and replace them with the following units in order (note, the names are being reused to show what the unit is modelled on):

Name: Extremist [£54,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [close]
Targets: LET / NLD
Stats: **** / * / * / ******
ETA: 3
Initiative: 65
Route(s): Protestor
This unit is very similar to the current Extremist unit. However, it fires slightly earlier to armour-strip before Protestor Leaders fire, as well as firing before Bunkers to ever so slightly increase their strength against that sub-route. It is also ETA 3 to allow more efficient last-ticking, along with other Protestor units such as Gurus and Leaders. Finally, the unit does a lot more armour damage than it currently does. The unit should have about a 1:2 ratio on killing Psychopathic Androids, imo.

Name: Rebel [£47,500]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Stuns [r/m]
Targets: LET
Stats: *** / * / *** / **
ETA: 5
Initiative: 235
Route(s): Protestor
This unit effectively replaces the role of the Rebel – attempting to keep the route alive at range – and fills the role much more appropriately. The main aim of the route is to be a very powerful force last tick. A strong r/m killer defeats this aim. However, without a r/m killer, the route just gets walked over and requires too much activity. By replacing it with a Stunning unit (very similar to the Siren unit), the route can survive much better at range without being overpowered itself.

Name: Fanatic [£42,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [close]
Targets: LET / INN
Stats: **** / * / ***** / *
ETA: 4
Initiative: 234
Route(s): Protestor
Almost exactly the same as the current Fanatic unit. Damage wise, it should kill Secret Agents about 1:1.4.

Thug Changes

Change to Bikers coupled with the Pom change:

Name: Biker [£38,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [all]
Targets: NLD
Stats: ** / *** / ** / ***
ETA: 4
Initiative: 195
Route(s): Thug
This change prevents very small Biker players constantly rushing big Pom players and taking no losses. This should not be happening in the game and is one of the biggest unit/route flaws, imo. However, with Poms reduced AD and Bikers increased AR, Bikers will still be able to take on Poms fairly easily (even Poms bigger than them). Bikers also won't be as squishy as they currently are.

Change to TLs to give the route slightly more target potential:

Name: Terrorist Leader [£40,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [r/m]
Targets: LET / INN
Stats: *** / ** / ** / ***
ETA: 4 {reveal eta 2}
Initiative: 320
Stealth.
Route(s): Thug
This change is two-fold. An increase to TL's AD opens up much more targets for all Thug routes. They will be able to take on all Military routes much more effectively. It also increases the Striker route's enemies. As mentioned, Strikers are currently too hard to kill and this opens up a new way to kill them. (Note: Other stats and/or cost may need to be taken into consideration to ensure the unit isn't overpowered.)

PB

No subroute changes.

Dogs

Nutters and Attack Dogs should be switched in the tech tree (along with a slight reduction in Attack Dogs damage). This will allow Dogs to be used as a early flak killer along with Petrols and thus provide more variety in the Thug route people play. I also suggest a change to Nutters are they're utterly pointless at the moment:

Name: Nutter [£10,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: NLT
Attack type: Disables [close]
Targets: LET / ALL
Stats: * / *** / * / **
ETA: 2
Initiative: 350
Route(s): Thug
This unit is basically a close range only version of a Hooligan. I'm sure everyone can see the benefits of that so I won't write a load of crap explaining why it's good.

Thief

Replacement for Arsonists which are, quite frankly, rubbish:

Name: Arsonist [£30,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: NLT
Attack type: Disables [all]
Targets: NLD / ALL
Stats: ** / * / ** / ****
ETA: 3
Initiative: 179
Route(s): Thug
Thief isn't supposed to be a strong LET route, hence the introduction of a new NLT unit. This unit provides many bonuses to the Thief sub-route. It allows ETA 3 attacks on prots again (which now isn't possible with ETA 4 Bikers). It provides a decent early counter to Gurus as well as providing a unit to stop NLD before they fire (as Bikers would fire after NLD again). It also means that the Thief route is useful to an alliance before Terrorists come out and means the route can survive as a solo slightly easier early on. Also, it provides an anti-Biker rush unit (not quite as necessary now, but useful nonetheless).

Military Changes

Striker

Overall, the Striker sub-route is one of the, if not the, strongest LET routes in the game. It has both huge survivability and high fire-power. The previously posted changes to TLs should help to address this problem.

RPG

No changes.

Ranger

The Harrier route is a bit of a jack of all traders, master of none. Harriers are decent AD and Rangers are decent HD but, overall, you'd be much better off with pretty much any other route in an alliance. All the units in the route are very squishy too. The EMP unit should be removed, this has been mentioned so many times and I really cba to write out reasons, it's just an awful unit. Thus, the following change to Paratroopers and Harriers:

Name: Paratrooper [£32,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [all]
Targets: NLT / LET / ALL
Stats: * / *** / * / ***
ETA: 3
Initiative: 680
Route(s): Military
Basically a decent LET flak unit for Harriers to make up for Harriers' lack of armour as well as a decent NLT killer to counter some of the newly introduced units.

Name: Harrier [£80,000]
Unit Type: Machine/Vehicle
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [all]
Targets: LET / ALL
Stats: * / *** / ** / ***** (up their health slightly so that they're more likely to fire after RPGs/Striker)
ETA: 3
Initiative: 266
Route(s): Military
Init changed to before Assassins so the route isn't so weak against Spec Ops if you aren't mass Rangers. This changed definitely needs to be considered a lot as Harriers would fire before Hools and thus allow more successful rushes on Robots. May need to change their ETA to 4, also change Hools' init or just not implement this change.

Robotics Changes

Everyone knows CDs are crap. Originally they killed flak but TDs killed flak better so they were useless then. Now they kill Tractors but CWs kill Tractors reasonably well as well as kill LET so it's just not worth justifying buying CDs over CWs. Thus, I'm going to suggest the following change to CDs:

Name: Crazed Droid [£65,000]
Unit Type: Robotic
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [close]
Targets: ALL
Stats: * / *****(*) / ** / *(*)
ETA: 4
Initiative: 176
This new unit will be very similar to PA's in stats but fire at close and target all instead. It is mainly designed to give Shields and Stunbots an early firing unit that they miss out on not having PA's.

PA

No changes.

Shields

Overall, Shields are not worth losing PA for. PA are awesome early on and great all round for killing most health based units before they fire. The increase to Shields' AR was a decent idea to make the route better, but there's still one major advantage of PA over Shields. Their ETA. ETA 5 units are very rarely used on a large scale. With Shields being ETA 5, it makes the route quite weak in defence for an alliance. Often you don't want to send defence till incoming is ETA 3 so you can see what's needed where etc. Thus, I suggest making Shields ETA 4 and reducing their AR slightly (although still stronger than they were a couple of rounds back). This will make them much more useful. Also, their targetting could be changed to ALL (or LET/ALL) rather than LET to provide a (not-so-effective) sweeper for the subroute which will make them slightly easier to play as a solo.

Stuns

The swap of Stunbots to the second tier of developments was great and has made this sub-route much more useable. Nanobots do seem better this round but a lot of people still prefered CS. So, I'm suggesting players get a choice between CS and Nanobots like the choice between Stealth Thieves and Spikes etc.

Special Ops Changes

A replacement for Chemical Sprayers isn't necessarily needed because Spike Traps and Stealth Thieves are fine as they are, but making them useful would allow more variety in what unit Special Ops players pick:

Name: Stealth Gardener [£10,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: INN
Attack type: Gardens [close]
Stats: * / * / 1000 plants.
ETA: 5 {reveal eta 2}
Initiative: 890
Stealth.
Route(s): Special Operations
The flakking effectiveness of this unit would need to be very low (ie. only have 2-3 times the strength of a normal gardener) because they would allow for a vast amount of tactics for Special Ops players, especially early on.

Bunkers

I would suggest that both Bunkers and Sentries have their cost and all stats halved. They are currently too hard to kill, especially in the hands of a good player.

SAs

No changes.

Puppets

Imo, in an alliance, Puppets don't really have any advantage over using a Pom player with mass Hypnos. Hypnos fire earlier than Puppets, are eta 4 and have the benefit of also having Gurus and Poms in the route. Puppets are only better because they fire all 3 ticks and target ALL/LET (although a Hypno player can use Poms to block INN anyway). Puppets are good as a solo due to SGT and Steel Walls, although this is only in defence. Thus, I'd suggest the following changes to Steel Walls and Puppets:

Name: Steel Wall [£35,000]
Unit Type: Machine/Vehicle
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [close]
Targets: ALL
Stats: * / ***** / * / *
ETA: 4
Initiative: 40
Route(s): Special Operations
This puts them in the same vein as Jeeps, Humvees and Shields. They will be able to more effectively bribe in attacks, as well as provide a solid armoured flak unit in an alliance. Their initiative and damage may need to be reconsidered too though.

Name: Puppet Master [£90,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Bribes [all]
Targets: ALL / LET
Stats: *** / ** / *** / ***
ETA: 5
Initiative: 665
Route(s): Special Operations
The improved initiative makes them slightly more effective, especially against some of the “early” round units.

Fantasy Changes

The Fantasy route introduced us to a lot of the new features in the battle engine, including the new ranges. However, this introduced a route with no units that fire every tick. I feel this is something that the route misses out on although I can't exactly explain why...

Vamps

The Vampire route is good but with 2 major drawbacks. Its ETA and its range:

Name: Vampire [£75,000]
Unit Type: Undead
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Converts [all]
Converts Unit Type(s): Living
Converts To: Lesser Vampire
Targets: LET / ALL
Stats: *** / * / *** / **
ETA: 5 {reveal eta 3}
Initiative: 240
Stealth.
Route(s): Fantasy
Firing all ticks removes the unnecessary disadvantage that the route has. Increased cost compensates for the range change.

Name: Mummy [£25,000]
Unit Type: Undead
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [all]
Targets: LET / INN
Stats: ** / ** / ** / *
ETA: 3
Initiative: 480
Route(s): Fantasy
The Mummy unit is never used currently. Werewolves provide more usable damage as well as a lower ETA. The change to their ETA makes the whole route much more useful to an alliance. The change to their range helps to removes the unnecessary disadvantage that the route has as well as make the unit more useful early on before Vamps are out.

Sorcs

The Sorcerer subroute is pretty useless as it is. It also feels far too “Thugish” and doesn't have its own identity. Thus, I'd suggest changing the majority of the subroutes units to be armour based but with a bit of health. This is a niche that no route currently fills (we have armour based, health based and health based with a bit of armour atm). Bunker Busters are also a horrible unit (as with EMPs) and should be removed.

Apprentices are currently armoured and as such fit in with my proposal for the route.

Name: Witch [£35,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [m/c]
Targets: LET / NLT
Stats: **** / ** / *** / *
ETA: 4
Initiative: 290
Route(s): Fantasy
Witches provide health flak to a route that will be predominantly armoured. The change to their range also makes them more useful as they can last tick Thugs. Their unnecessary bonuses should be removed.

Name: Sorcerer [£60,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [r/m]
Targets: ALL
Stats: ** / **** / ** / ****
ETA: 4
Initiative: 340
Route(s): Fantasy
This unit is exceptionally good against non-LET units. Coupled with Iron Golems for flak and damage last tick, these units provide a great anti-prot combination.

Name: Iron Golem [£30,000]
Unit Type: Robotic
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [all]
Targets: ALL
Stats: *(*) / **** / * / *
ETA: 3
Initiative: 360
Route(s): Fantasy
This unit provides armoured flak for the route. Its range change to all provides the route with a unit that actually fires all ticks.

Name: Siren [£50,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Stuns [r/m]
Targets: LET
Stats: ** / *** / **** / **
ETA: 3
Initiative: 260
Route(s): Fantasy
This unit will now actually be useful for the route as they won't just die as soon as anything fires at them.

Name: Dragon [£90,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [r/c]
Targets: LET / ALL
Stats: ** / ***** / ***** / *****
ETA: 5
Initiative: 490
Route(s): Fantasy
Changes stats to match the new niche for this route. Pointless bonuses should be removed.

Generic Changes

New research: Packet Analysing available after Airfield
ETA: 60
Cost: £5,000,000,000
:: Enables Intelligence 'Packet Analysis'.

'Packet Analysis' is effectively a spy report, but it cuts off any news which occurred more than x ticks ago (where x is around 2-3). A Packet Analysis does not reveal sender IDs. This provides a much earlier ability to “spy” so that it will be not so risky (suicidal if you trigger SAS) to send lethals out on attacks before Spy School is finished. This will allow wars to be waged earlier on as well as lethals to be used in normal attacks. Note: This is a research, as is Hacking, so players would need to make the choice whether to do Hacking and then Spy School or this early on, allowing more flexibility in playstyle.

 

[Max]

Overall, very good Polo! However, CDs do a fantastic job at the moment of killing tractors. They really don't need changing because they are the only unit effective at doing this Love the nutter change though!

 

[Polo]

22:38:45 Hobbezak • Hmmm Polo, why change tl AD?
22:38:53 Hobbezak • Will make hoolie even more underused.
22:38:53 Polo • so they're not ****
22:39:08 Hobbezak • Thugs got all the AD they want in the hooligan?
22:39:15 Polo • lies
22:39:26 Polo • unless you remove hools' HD
22:40:33 Hobbezak • sounds like something to consider then Polo.
22:40:59 Polo • hmm
22:41:00 Hobbezak • Because atm no one uses hool
22:41:04 Polo • not a bad idea actually
22:41:07 Polo • I use hools
22:41:07 Polo •
22:41:08 Hobbezak • and I like the whole combo thing
22:41:15 Polo • I'll see what people think
22:41:19 Polo • if they don't like the TL change
22:41:27 Polo • I'll suggest removing hool's hd
22:42:09 Polo • actually, I'll just c&p this convo

Note: by "remove hools' HD", I don't mean make it zero like Steel Walls. Just a fair bit lower than it is atm.

Note2: I still prefer changing TLs to changing Hools.

 

[Tombi]

Ranger

The Harrier route is a bit of a jack of all traders, master of none. Harriers are decent AD and Rangers are decent HD but, overall, you'd be much better off with pretty much any other route in an alliance. All the units in the route are very squishy too. The EMP unit should be removed, this has been mentioned so many times and I really cba to write out reasons, it's just an awful unit. Thus, the following change to Paratroopers and Harriers:

Name: Paratrooper [£32,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [all]
Targets: NLT / LET / ALL
Stats: * / *** / * / ***
ETA: 3
Initiative: 680
Route(s): Military
Basically a decent LET flak unit for Harriers to make up for Harriers' lack of armour as well as a decent NLT killer to counter some of the newly introduced units.

Name: Harrier [£80,000]
Unit Type: Machine/Vehicle
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [all]
Targets: LET / ALL
Stats: * / *** / ** / ***** (up their health slightly so that they're more likely to fire after RPGs/Striker)
ETA: 3
Initiative: 266
Route(s): Military
Init changed to before Assassins so the route isn't so weak against Spec Ops if you aren't mass Rangers. This changed definitely needs to be considered a lot as Harriers would fire before Hools and thus allow more successful rushes on Robots. May need to change their ETA to 4, also change Hools' init or just not implement this change.

-snip-

In reference to just that part of your post I fully agree with you saying Rangers are too Weak, ive played rangers for the majority of the rounds i have played, tried and experimented with different ratios and i still pretty much ended up being an easy target for many companies much smaller than me.

In particular Poms can attack ranger heavy players much bigger than themselves and suceed.

What i would like to propose is changing the targeting of the Ranger unit, lowering the eta andlowering the cost slightly so it would look something like this:

Name: Ranger [£50,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET/NLD
Attack type: Kills [all]
Targets: LET
Stats: *** / **** / **** / **
ETA: 4
Initiative: 510
Route(s): Military
Description: After many fights, these soldiers have been awarded gallantry medals for outstanding work in the field. All are marksmen and have a hardened edge that no girl can resist. They wear their medals with pride and are fluent in many forms of hand-to-hand combat.

Technology "Gallantry Awards" gives access to this unit.

This would change the Role of the route quite significantly but as you have stated the Route doesnt really have any defining use.

Another option to look at would be changing f-117s as at the moment they are somewhat obsolete.

What i would propose is changing the targeting to LET/ALL instead of just ALL
and to compensate for this raise the price to £150,000.

Name: F-117 [£150,000]
Unit Type: Machine/Vehicle
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [r/m]
Targets: LET
Stats: * / *** / ***** / ******
ETA: 8 {reveal eta 2}
Initiative: 60
Stealth.
Route(s): Military
Description: The F-117 is a stealth aircraft designed for penetrating behind enemy lines before unleashing a barrage of bombs and missiles upon the enemy. It does this by absorbing enemy radar and effectively pretending that it's not there. Silent, invisible, and very dangerous.

Technology "Stealth Cloaking Research" gives access to this unit.


Thoes are just My ideas for the route, feel free to add criticism as i have probably suggested something outrageous but if your going to flame just fack off.

Tom

 

[JJB]

Agree will almost everything in your post and like the ideas to improve these problems

Especially this one
Rangers are far too weak and die stupidly easy compared to what there stats suggest
Ranger – Currently it's too weak. Should be able to survive a bit better.


Also like this idea as nobody likes losing their new LETs and may also help people more who are new to the game

New research: Packet Analysing available after Airfield
ETA: 60
Cost: £5,000,000,000
:: Enables Intelligence 'Packet Analysis'.

'Packet Analysis' is effectively a spy report, but it cuts off any news which occurred more than x ticks ago (where x is around 2-3). A Packet Analysis does not reveal sender IDs. This provides a much earlier ability to “spy” so that it will be not so risky (suicidal if you trigger SAS) to send lethals out on attacks before Spy School is finished. This will allow wars to be waged earlier on as well as lethals to be used in normal attacks. Note: This is a research, as is Hacking, so players would need to make the choice whether to do Hacking and then Spy School or this early on, allowing more flexibility in playstyle.[/QUOTE]

BUT

Bunkers – Too hard to kill currently.

I dont agree with this, bunkers are never "easy" to kill i will admit that (well without taking some losses)
but they are not too hard, you say they are powerful if played by a gd player but so is any route if u get the ratios right

 

[Hobbezak]

I dont agree with this, bunkers are never "easy" to kill i will admit that (well without taking some losses)
but they are not too hard, you say they are powerful if played by a gd player but so is any route if u get the ratios right

I bet you would say that, I don't tho, after trying to kill you with mass pa-cw.

 

[JJB]

I dont agree with this, bunkers are never "easy" to kill i will admit that (well without taking some losses)
but they are not too hard, you say they are powerful if played by a gd player but so is any route if u get the ratios right

I bet you would say that, I don't tho, after trying to kill you with mass pa-cw.

trying?? im fairly sure u nearly zeroed me and took 2.5k land

 

[Hobbezak]

I dont agree with this, bunkers are never "easy" to kill i will admit that (well without taking some losses)
but they are not too hard, you say they are powerful if played by a gd player but so is any route if u get the ratios right

I bet you would say that, I don't tho, after trying to kill you with mass pa-cw.

trying?? im fairly sure u nearly zeroed me and took 2.5k land

[close] 58,161,822 allied Cybernetic Warrior attacked, killing 7,533,954 hostile staff.

That's on 50% sentries, 50% bunkers. 7.5m of both survived. I do think that such a ratio is a bit exagerated on the survivability, on the other hand sentries do cost 280k(?) so perhaps such a cost warrants this survivability.

 

[DarkSider]

The OP is damn huge and i almost never have the will to get through this kind of long and detailed suggestions especially if you don't just say the idea you want to change but give stats of an unit and i should be checking in the manual all the stars, init and all that to see what's different However as i'm waiting for an attack to finish i'll try to give my input on it really quick, sorry i won't use quotes:




Protestor Route

VD – Currently it is a Prot/Thug hybrid route. It lacks any real targets but is good overall. I'd like to give it more target potential as well as give it more of an identity with its own units rather than stealing T/TL from Thugs but still be Prot/Thug hybrid style.


I agree it's a good overall route, waiting to read the suggestion




Pom – Currently it's a little too strong overall. Should be less effective against health/armour combo units. Biker rushes also need to be addressed.



Definately, prot is the most powerfull route ingame imo.




Last-tick – Currently it is rubbish. It's unplayable at range and not powerful enough at close.



I assume you mean extremists. The power of the route comes from attacking not defending. In defence your strikers would fire before their strikers anyway so the better init of the extremist or the better init of fanatics over agents it's not something you'd choose the route for if you want to defend. Majority look at it as a 100% defensive route when it's exactly the other way around. I have to say i have a feeling the route doesn't deliver the damage needed but this feeling has very little real feedback since i hardly saw the route played and even less played good on offense.




Thug – Biker rushes need to be addressed. Could do with slightly more target potential.

PB – Pretty much fine as it is in combination with the above points.

Dogs – Need to be more appealing so PB isn't an automatic choice. Nutters should be useful.


I agree.




Thief – Need to be more appealing so PB isn't an automatic choice. Arsonists should be useful.


Agree.

Military

Striker – Currently it's slightly too hard to kill.


I'm not entirely sure. I personally think the route doesn't have high enough damage so the very good survability should make up for that. Keep in mind all the scenarios from 1:1 to mass attacks. I always compare the price and damage of tyrants vs apache and find apache's severily lacking. Also if you compare strikers and rpg vs pure PA for example you'll find that rpg's are much better. Also rpg can strip nonlet and fire before so again strikers are lacking firepower.



RPG – Currently it's quite a reasonable route.

While i just said i like rpg unit over striker i think RPG needs a boost on shocks or snipers. If it was after me i'd give shocks some extra armour




Ranger – Currently it's too weak. Should be able to survive a bit better.


I agree, harriers are mainly good for 1:1 rushes and rangers fire so late and take severe casualties from all the AD/HD combos. However i do remember the route can deliver quite a punch vs a SO in a 1:1 so to not break that balance why not go for a lower init ? I might be way off on this one but what about lowering the init of rangers somewhere between snipers and CW ?




Robotics – CDs should be useful.


CD's are usefull



PA – Fine as it is.

Shields – Ok as it is.


I suggested before and Azzer liked it to cut the price and stats of the shields. Atm for that price they deliver as much flaking as PA for CW and TD on first tick, the only difference is you'd have more leftovers for second tick.
Something like half cost and stats .. you get the idea



Stuns – Ok as it is. Could do with Nanos being replaced/better.


I think the stunbots eta should be lowered since that's the main strength of the route. Not sure about nano, i do know i underestimated them and midtick they quite whooped my rpg ass




Special Ops – Could do with Chemical Sprayers being replaced.



Agree.


Bunkers – Too hard to kill currently.


Since this is a 100% solo option and with the current solo settings i personally think bunker players are too easy to kill, especially the high ranked ones. I killed bunkers with sentry this round at 70% without much trouble and i don't have the best anti bunker route, not to mention it would be much easyer with a combo.



SAs – Good as it is.


Puppets – Good as it is but could be changed slightly to be more useful in an alliance.

Not sure how without making it too powerfull in 1:1 bribes. Currently puppets defending in an alliance adds at least a strong psychological aspect, not quite sure about the average bribes. But i know most would rather have their units killed than to see them bribed


Fantasy

Vamps – Ok as it is. Could do with a unit that fires every tick.

Sorcs – Underpowered currently. Could do with a unit that fires every tick. Should be slightly less “Thugish”. Needs its own niche.



I've actually always argued to have it more thugish I think sorcs should be the #1 enemy of the poms with an increased survability bonus against them so there is at least a route out there that can damage a protestor severily without buying a 100% dedicated unit and make himself totally useless against rest. Not to mention bikers this days need to fire in pretty damn large numbers to make the prots feel the pain



Generic – New spy like intelligence to promote more interesting (lethal) flak wars.


Interesting ^^



I'll just have a quick eye over some units here, hope i can come back later and edit:



Name: Extremist [£54,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [close]
Targets: LET / NLD
Stats: **** / * / * / ******
ETA: 3
Initiative: 65
Route(s): Protestor
This unit is very similar to the current Extremist unit. However, it fires slightly earlier to armour-strip before Protestor Leaders fire, as well as firing before Bunkers to ever so slightly increase their strength against that sub-route. It is also ETA 3 to allow more efficient last-ticking, along with other Protestor units such as Gurus and Leaders. Finally, the unit does a lot more armour damage than it currently does. The unit should have about a 1:2 ratio on killing Psychopathic Androids, imo.



At that init and that cost i find it awkard to give them an eta 3 and a power about 4 times more than assassins ?
Since it's a suport route for attacking it's imperative not to be too easy to boost the attacks once you see what defence is coming so boosting eta 3 extremists when you notice last tick defence coming which usually has eta 4 will probably make the unit too strong.
As i said i'm not entirelly sure but i'd go with a slight damage increase and keep eta 4.




Change to TLs to give the route slightly more target potential:

Name: Terrorist Leader [£40,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [r/m]
Targets: LET / INN
Stats: *** / ** / ** / ***
ETA: 4 {reveal eta 2}
Initiative: 320
Stealth.
Route(s): Thug
This change is two-fold. An increase to TL's AD opens up much more targets for all Thug routes. They will be able to take on all Military routes much more effectively. It also increases the Striker route's enemies. As mentioned, Strikers are currently too hard to kill and this opens up a new way to kill them. (Note: Other stats and/or cost may need to be taken into consideration to ensure the unit isn't overpowered.)



I don't think i played with tl's since removal of exp but if i remember right tl's had some potential in them even without exp. Obviously i'd love this change but i'm not sure if it wouldn't make the unit too strong.



PB

No subroute changes.

Dogs

Nutters and Attack Dogs should be switched in the tech tree (along with a slight reduction in Attack Dogs damage). This will allow Dogs to be used as a early flak killer along with Petrols and thus provide more variety in the Thug route people play. I also suggest a change to Nutters are they're utterly pointless at the moment:

Name: Nutter [£10,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: NLT
Attack type: Disables [close]
Targets: LET / ALL
Stats: * / *** / * / **
ETA: 2
Initiative: 350
Route(s): Thug
This unit is basically a close range only version of a Hooligan. I'm sure everyone can see the benefits of that so I won't write a load of crap explaining why it's good.


I do agree nutters need a boost but since thug is mainly a range only route i'm not sure i like your suggestion. Afterall with thugs you always want to fight the ranged ticks and flee on last one so probably a ranged unit as the current nutter is the way to go. What about an icrease in power and decrease in init before it's main enemies agents and vamps ?



RPG

No changes.

Boost shocks AR imo




'Packet Analysis' is effectively a spy report, but it cuts off any news which occurred more than x ticks ago (where x is around 2-3). A Packet Analysis does not reveal sender IDs. This provides a much earlier ability to “spy” so that it will be not so risky (suicidal if you trigger SAS) to send lethals out on attacks before Spy School is finished. This will allow wars to be waged earlier on as well as lethals to be used in normal attacks. Note: This is a research, as is Hacking, so players would need to make the choice whether to do Hacking and then Spy School or this early on, allowing more flexibility in playstyle.


I don't agree with the balded part This is a 100% anti solo suggestion. If you don't see who is sending and i know you have this intel all i have to do is ask several members to send a few gards to defend and it will look like a mega army of HT's defending. All it will acomplish is identify those id's that don't get this kind of defence and SAS triggering.
I think all allies Public + this intel would acuratelly show this and last tick would be a better option. Solo's would have a difficult start but allies should be warring quite alot too i think.

 

[Flip]

I agree with almost all your points/suggestions. However I don't think bunkers should be easier to kill (even if they are still reasonably hard). The only reason to go bunker is massive defense, which your trading attack power for. I think that's a fine trade.

Striker is pretty overpowered, I think marines are the main reason for that. As for ranger, I think if harriers were just a bit cheaper the route would be alot better as a while, a bit more survivability for harriers wouldn;t be bad either.

I think Nanobots should just be health based, like CS were. I mean, if you think of them as little robots infecting humans or whatever, it makes sense

Sorcs need a lot of work, for one I think Bunker busters should be removed. Golems are one of the best units in the game in my opinion, but witches kinda suck. Sure they have a nice bonus vs TLs, but how often do you even see them? A pure middle unit is kind of crappy looking at the rest of the route. Sirens are complicated, they are a great unit, but theres no way to use them effectively really. They either need to be cheaper or harder to kill. And finally Dragons, should probably fire all, the r/c just doesn't make sense I think. Now ofcourse if you make all those changes to sorc, it would probably be terribly overpowered, but it definitely needs something.

 

[Polo]

I assume you mean extremists. The power of the route comes from attacking not defending. In defence your strikers would fire before their strikers anyway so the better init of the extremist or the better init of fanatics over agents it's not something you'd choose the route for if you want to defend. Majority look at it as a 100% defensive route when it's exactly the other way around. I have to say i have a feeling the route doesn't deliver the damage needed but this feeling has very little real feedback since i hardly saw the route played and even less played good on offense.

Name: Extremist [£54,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [close]
Targets: LET / NLD
Stats: **** / * / * / ******
ETA: 3
Initiative: 65
Route(s): Protestor
This unit is very similar to the current Extremist unit. However, it fires slightly earlier to armour-strip before Protestor Leaders fire, as well as firing before Bunkers to ever so slightly increase their strength against that sub-route. It is also ETA 3 to allow more efficient last-ticking, along with other Protestor units such as Gurus and Leaders. Finally, the unit does a lot more armour damage than it currently does. The unit should have about a 1:2 ratio on killing Psychopathic Androids, imo.


At that init and that cost i find it awkard to give them an eta 3 and a power about 4 times more than assassins ?
Since it's a suport route for attacking it's imperative not to be too easy to boost the attacks once you see what defence is coming so boosting eta 3 extremists when you notice last tick defence coming which usually has eta 4 will probably make the unit too strong.
As i said i'm not entirelly sure but i'd go with a slight damage increase and keep eta 4.

Tbh, I never thought of that. Extremists would have to be ETA 4 although I'd still keep Fanatics at eta 3 as they're not quite as good (maybe reduced their damage a bit so the route is mainly anti-armour).

Military

Striker – Currently it's slightly too hard to kill.


I'm not entirely sure. I personally think the route doesn't have high enough damage so the very good survability should make up for that. Keep in mind all the scenarios from 1:1 to mass attacks. I always compare the price and damage of tyrants vs apache and find apache's severily lacking. Also if you compare strikers and rpg vs pure PA for example you'll find that rpg's are much better. Also rpg can strip nonlet and fire before so again strikers are lacking firepower.

Strikers' damage isn't quite as good as RPGs. But they fire all ticks and survive a hell of a lot better, especially when combined with Marines. They're definitely overpowered.

RPG – Currently it's quite a reasonable route.

While i just said i like rpg unit over striker i think RPG needs a boost on shocks or snipers. If it was after me i'd give shocks some extra armour

I was considering suggesting something minor like that to buff RPGs. Either a small increase to Shock's AR or a reduction in cost (and AR) of Humvees would would so they can actually be used as flak - currently they're far too expensive to be used. Same as Jeeps really. A reduction in cost from £51k to ~£39k would be good imo.

I agree, harriers are mainly good for 1:1 rushes and rangers fire so late and take severe casualties from all the AD/HD combos. However i do remember the route can deliver quite a punch vs a SO in a 1:1 so to not break that balance why not go for a lower init ? I might be way off on this one but what about lowering the init of rangers somewhere between snipers and CW ?

I think buffing Harriers/Paras would be better than buffing Rangers. The route should be more of an anti-armour route imo so there's more choices than just RPG or Striker (as currently there are plenty of anti-health choices).

Robotics – CDs should be useful.

CD's are usefull

BS. As I said, you're far better of buying more CWs than CDs. As then you still kill Tractors as well as killing LETs.

Shields – Ok as it is.

I suggested before and Azzer liked it to cut the price and stats of the shields. Atm for that price they deliver as much flaking as PA for CW and TD on first tick, the only difference is you'd have more leftovers for second tick.
Something like half cost and stats .. you get the idea

Shields' AR/£cost would have to be reduced to about the level they were previously if you were to reduce their cost else they'd be insanely strong. But not a bad idea.

Stuns – Ok as it is. Could do with Nanos being replaced/better.

I think the stunbots eta should be lowered since that's the main strength of the route. Not sure about nano, i do know i underestimated them and midtick they quite whooped my rpg ass

ETA 3 is fine imo. Being able to send SD/SB ETA 1 would be too good (especially as there are no decent NLT killers).

Sorcs – Underpowered currently. Could do with a unit that fires every tick. Should be slightly less “Thugish”. Needs its own niche.

I've actually always argued to have it more thugish I think sorcs should be the #1 enemy of the poms with an increased survability bonus against them so there is at least a route out there that can damage a protestor severily without buying a 100% dedicated unit and make himself totally useless against rest. Not to mention bikers this days need to fire in pretty damn large numbers to make the prots feel the pain

With my suggested changes to both Thug, Pom and Sorc, they would be far better against Poms than currently.

Change to TLs to give the route slightly more target potential:

Name: Terrorist Leader [£40,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: LET
Attack type: Kills [r/m]
Targets: LET / INN
Stats: *** / ** / ** / ***
ETA: 4 {reveal eta 2}
Initiative: 320
Stealth.
Route(s): Thug
This change is two-fold. An increase to TL's AD opens up much more targets for all Thug routes. They will be able to take on all Military routes much more effectively. It also increases the Striker route's enemies. As mentioned, Strikers are currently too hard to kill and this opens up a new way to kill them. (Note: Other stats and/or cost may need to be taken into consideration to ensure the unit isn't overpowered.)


I don't think i played with tl's since removal of exp but if i remember right tl's had some potential in them even without exp. Obviously i'd love this change but i'm not sure if it wouldn't make the unit too strong.

I have. They're crap. Their AR may need to be lowered a tiny bit to compensate though.

Dogs

Nutters and Attack Dogs should be switched in the tech tree (along with a slight reduction in Attack Dogs damage). This will allow Dogs to be used as a early flak killer along with Petrols and thus provide more variety in the Thug route people play. I also suggest a change to Nutters are they're utterly pointless at the moment:

Name: Nutter [£10,000]
Unit Type: Living
Unit Class: NLT
Attack type: Disables [close]
Targets: LET / ALL
Stats: * / *** / * / **
ETA: 2
Initiative: 350
Route(s): Thug
This unit is basically a close range only version of a Hooligan. I'm sure everyone can see the benefits of that so I won't write a load of crap explaining why it's good.


I do agree nutters need a boost but since thug is mainly a range only route i'm not sure i like your suggestion. Afterall with thugs you always want to fight the ranged ticks and flee on last one so probably a ranged unit as the current nutter is the way to go. What about an icrease in power and decrease in init before it's main enemies agents and vamps ?

Dogs are the one subroute of Thug that is[/i] good last tick due to Attack Dogs. I think they need this change so they aren't so much of a Ranged route. That way, Dogs could be much more useful than PB.

 

[Max]

BS. As I said, you're far better of buying more CWs than CDs. As then you still kill Tractors as well as killing LETs.

Sorry, Polo, but you're wrong on this one. Buying CWs to kill tractors is incredibly inefficient. CWs do not get 1:1 on tractors, and CWs cost 110k. CDs get 1:3 on tractors and cost 49k. So they are at least 6 times more effective based on that fact alone, and that's a severe underestimate.

CDs need to stay as they are, since Azzer changed them from doing the same job as TDs round ago they are a godsend

 

[Polo]

BS. As I said, you're far better of buying more CWs than CDs. As then you still kill Tractors as well as killing LETs.

Sorry, Polo, but you're wrong on this one. Buying CWs to kill tractors is incredibly inefficient. CWs do not get 1:1 on tractors, and CWs cost 110k. CDs get 1:3 on tractors and cost 49k. So they are at least 6 times more effective based on that fact alone, and that's a severe underestimate.

CDs need to stay as they are, since Azzer changed them from doing the same job as TDs round ago they are a godsend

I never said buying CWs was more efficient for killing Tractors. But when you take into consideration the fact that CWs also target LET and ALL, you'd be insane to buy CDs.

 

[Alcibiades]

BS. As I said, you're far better of buying more CWs than CDs. As then you still kill Tractors as well as killing LETs.

Sorry, Polo, but you're wrong on this one. Buying CWs to kill tractors is incredibly inefficient. CWs do not get 1:1 on tractors, and CWs cost 110k. CDs get 1:3 on tractors and cost 49k. So they are at least 6 times more effective based on that fact alone, and that's a severe underestimate.

CDs need to stay as they are, since Azzer changed them from doing the same job as TDs round ago they are a godsend

I never said buying CWs was more efficient for killing Tractors. But when you take into consideration the fact that CWs also target LET and ALL, you'd be insane to buy CDs.

Polo is correct here. CDs are a waste of funds.

CWs kill Tractors well enough, and TDs just waste flak far more efficiently than CDs ever can. Tractors are easy enough to block anyways.

As for the rest of the post I see no need to quote everything since i happen to agree with all the changes, at the very least since it would shake things up a bit and some tactics would have to be rethought. I'm not one for understanding balance very well, but this seems to work well enough.

Cheers Polo for your time and effort.

 

[Turnip2k]

I feel that strikers would fare far less well if there was a very powerful, late firing AD unit (like an AD equivalent of TD's). The reason strikers are so hard to kill is because by the time all the health and weaker armour is dead, there isn't much left in the BR which can seriously damage the strikers / apaches - even in a 1 on 1, the marines wont go down generally until most of the AD has already fired and wasted itself on them.

Perhaps pushing harriers to be a later firing, very powerful AD unit would be a nerf to strikers and a boost to rangers - killing 2 birds with one stone as it were. Another route which targets LET and does damage in health killing THEN armour killing would be very benefical to the game I feel.

 

[tobapopalos]

But harriers are an anti-CW unit, and if they fired much later I think that would damage their ability to kill robos (which is what the route is made for imo).

 

[Turnip2k]

All the mil routes kill robos exceptionally well (so altering 1 out of the 3 purpose can't hurt), making harriers fire after CW's but making them more survivable and more powerful may not make them better in 1 on 1 fights, but it will make them 10x better in large battles and VERY useful to have in an ally.

You have a few late firing, high damage harriers firing at the end of a fight, and the armour which will be ineviably lurking (shields, CW, strikers, apaches) will take a full hit.

You have harriers as they are now, they will take huge losses due to being so flimsy and crap, plus alot more of their fire will hit the health stuff (since they fire earlier), which isn't ideal.

 

[aGit]

i havent read this thread really, and im sure someone has made the point already, but just incase no one havent:

the ranger route imo is way underpowered:

Rangers, are omgwtfpwn for a awhile when they are out. but afterwards a whole lot of ad/hd combos sweep the floor with them (tls, rpg/snip, cw etc etc.)

harriers, considering their price, die waaay too easy imo. so easy infact, that when attacking robos the route takes way more damage than what a rpg or striker would. and the fact that str and rpg both pwn the hell out of the route due to int issues of their main hitters dont help. Sure, they're fast and do hd damage as well, but with the high int, high cost and low survivability i dont think the unit is anywhere near the functionaility of rpg or striker.

then there is ofc the mater of ranger route being the easiest route to flak in the game thus far. specially since not everyone consider f117s a must like SA or TLs. but even with the P unit, the route has some shortcomings on flak attacks.

you can see form the representation of the routes in the top100 for example, that not awhole lot of them are harriers. I realize, extremist have it even worse. but extremists sucking it is a known fact anyways.

 

[antisback]

[09:30] <antisashes> polo's suggestions don't work :S
[09:30] <antisashes> he's made the extremists route weaker overall
[09:31] <antisashes> killed the whole point of poms
[09:32] <FFX> i like the 6 star stats tho
[09:34] <antisashes> yeh but extremists won't kill anything
[09:34] <antisashes> they need the two stars of helth to make them worth it
[09:34] <antisashes> because fanatics fire relativly late for that route
[09:36] <FFX> aye
[09:38] <FFX> mind you at last tick
[09:38] <FFX> they'll be bloody strong
[09:38] <FFX> like bunker/sentry styles?
[09:40] <antisashes> naw
[09:40] <antisashes> even if you last tick will die to secret agents before they fire
[09:40] <antisashes> as under his changes sa's would fire before
[09:39] <antisashes> strikers are not that strong either they have their weaknesses like every other route
[09:39] <antisashes> they are expensive fire late and are not very good at killing flak
[09:41] <antisashes> and if you halve the stats of bunkers you can say goodbye to anyone who wants to play but doesn't have the time
[09:42] <antisashes> its the only solo route that can compete at the higher echelons without insane activity
[09:45] <antisashes> And the whole point of the fantasy route is that nothing fires all ticks
[09:45] <antisashes> you have to know what you're doing and get propper route setups
[09:46] <antisashes> the sorc route in the right hands is quite a nice route
[09:46] <antisashes> its only real enemy is vamps
[09:54] <antisashes> at the end of the day though if it ain't broke don't fix it
[09:54] <antisashes> the only routes that needs balancing is thiefs, nutters, rangers(but not too much) and fanatics

Cut fanatics initiative to fire just after extremists, and cut rebels cost so its a lethal flak for the 2 range ticks

Theifs route needs some sort of lethal flak to replace arsonists, maybe a marine lite would be a nice addition

I actually quite like your nutters suggestion can't think of any knock on effects.

As for the rangers route, the only real problem i see with it is the harriers unit - it fires relatively late and dies quite easy. I think a big reduction in cost is in order so a rangers player doesn't have to pick what routes they are going to target and can be slightly more of a jack of all trades.

Each route has its purpose and idea within the game, rangers route is meant to be a jack of all trades its only problem is its not a particularly good jack

You have to remember each change to each route has knock on effects for every other route, ie. if you introduce your rebel unit then puppets would find them really quite easy to bribe meaning they could amass huge armies of relatively strong stunner's thus making the puppets route then overpowered

 

[Alcibiades]

[09:45] <antisashes> And the whole point of the fantasy route is that nothing fires all ticks
[....snip]
[09:46] <antisashes> the sorc route in the right hands is quite a nice route
[09:46] <antisashes> its only real enemy is vamps
[09:54] <antisashes> at the end of the day though if it ain't broke don't fix it

Fantasy route was (apparently) designed to show off the multi tick advantages of the new unit firing style. It has done so admirably, but i still hold the opinion that it's a pretty crappy route.

And the sorc route in good hands can be used half decently, but i'd rather have that player playing just about anything else lol, except for bunkers (assuming they're allied). It just doesn't really add to an alliance setup, everything it does can be done better by another route. The only exception i can think of is that it's a rather good POM killer without requiring it to specialize like thugs with pure bikers. It has no real 'niche'; it's another purposeless route.

As for the only real enemy of Sorcs being vamps, that's pure bollocks. In my experience, you can utterly rape Sorcs with Robos and TLs while mostly losing flak (a tad more costly with TLs because thug units die like flies but still profitable). I haven't played other routes to target Sorcs, but it's one route i'm not really afraid of, pretty much period. Sorcs and Dragons simply don't survive one tick of battle against a properly set up enemy; so you flak the [ALL] targetting first tick, and then by second tick they're dead.