Rebuttal

[Alcibiades]

Ok, so since the previous thread was locked without any attempt at discussion, i thought i might post my rebuttal here. Pardon the length of the post but I wanted to try to be as clear as possible.

It's nothing to do with "Can't be arsed". You make it sound like I'm on some beach villa somewhere sipping on a cocktail laughing about life. What I'm actually doing is programming feverishly without break on another major project, so that I can get that out of the way, as it has to be finished this year... and that will allow me to come back to Bushtarion features and still be physically capable of keeping the games going.

I don't think anyone is under any illusions that you're off playing 'just the tip' with a bevy of morally lax models on a beach somewhere. I have no doubt that you're programming feverishly to complete your RPG game but the problem i have with that is that you've rather left us in the lurch with a half completed age 5 that is rife with issues and is, quite honestly, not functioning the manner in which we expected it would.

From Portal May 1st, 2009

* A new "Fairness Calculator" has been implemented but is currently only "background code" - new FC values are being generated in battles but are not currently being used. This is to ensure I can run enough data and tests on it in all of your live battles to check for problems, abuses - situations where it's too low, too high etc. - and tweak as necessary, before implementing it. Advance note: This system may go live mid-round, which will impact bounty gain levels, max-land-cap levels, and effectiveness gains.

After a quick skim through the portal and 'Design Directions thread' i was unable to find a mention of when the FC might be in place. That is the kind of thing i was thinking of when i complained about the lack of 'news' about the updates and their progress, or lack thereof. It's been quite awhile since that Portal post and i haven't heard anything since. It simply appears to me that it would behoove you to finish one game, or at least leave it in a functioning state. The broken Bounty Hunting system and the Fairness Calc do spring to mind. It would be nice to know where we stand on that since the FC is, at least for me, the core of Age 5.

I think it's a real shame that my own players want to imprison me to do their bidding without ever allowing me a break to work on other projects, whilst throwing an absolute paddy because I decided not to constantly add features to and alter major functions of the game every 3 months.

We aren't trying to hold you in prison to do 'our' bidding. We're trying to hold you accountable to your OWN promises that we would have a Fairness Calc (can't remember what your BH plans were but base bounty is, at best, a stopgap measure and should be removed as soon as possible.) We're not throwing a paddy because you aren't continually improving bushtarion, we're just a little miffed that you appear to have thrown this game, temporarily, to the wolves until you get your RPG done. It seems to make sense to me to leave a stable, functioning game before rushing to get an RPG done that isn't even in testing yet.

In nearly 8 years now of running, we've had 5 full ages and innumerable alterations between each that didn't trigger ages. The last age happened only just 1 year ago. The major features that are "in the middle of development" (ie not ready to release atm) will alter the game drastically once again. Just because I'm not now throwing out huge game mechanic altering features every 6 months doesn't mean I've run away forever and no longer care about Bushtarion.

Well if the features weren't ready for release, surely it would've made more sense to delay the Age 5 release? I mean some of the most important pieces of Age 5 have (yet) to be released, and we, the playerbase, are in the dark about the progress on them. We don't expect daily updates, but something to let us know that work is being done, or not, would be great. I'm fairly certain it wouldn't take too much time out of your week to let us know what the situation is. Anyways, i'm sure you're noticing a repetitive theme here about communication, and keeping your playerbase informed. It doesn't even have to be in great detail, but some sort of post would be much appreciated.

From the point Bushtarion started, to recent rounds, the number of features I added and changed were getting more and more frequent, and more and more major. Players seem to have grown accustomed to this, taken it for granted, and come to expect it. Barely a year in to one major age change (past ages have lasted multiple years before a new one came along) and this is the response.

This is the response simply because you've left us, once again, in the dark without any knowledge about these updates that we were expecting. It's not our fault we feel let down because we haven't been given the updates we thought we were getting. Age 5 was a majorly superficial update with what appeared to be some minor mechanic changes. We were expecting a few other things, like BH, FC, a Manual, a functioning Alliance War system, an the Advertising you told us we were going to have for Age 5. We are only clamouring for that which we were told we were going to get.

If anyone is suprised as to why I feel like I need a community manager to deal with the modern day player attitudes they only need to read the last few posts of this thread. And now it looks like Weeble's going to enjoy the flak. Anyone appointed to any position of power that doesn't do exactly what a player wants is going to get flak, and since different players usually want different things, it'd be impossible for anyone not to get flak. But sadly it's become commonplace for people to try and press the self-destruct button for everyone when they themselves aren't happy...

Trust me, NO ONE, is surprised that you need a community manager. As you and the playerbase well know, human interaction is not your strong sort, coding is. That's fine I have no objection to you getting a Community Manager but it strikes me that your choice seems a little odd. It's not necessarily my place to criticize Weeble, but I haven't noticed him do a lot more than lock threads and direct us to communicate with you. I guess now that he's "officially" the Community Manager this will change? Has he actually been given authority, or is he just the interface for dealing with you? If so that doesn't strike me as a huge 'management' job, more like a static filter.

I don't think in this case that it's a problem of loads of players wanting different things, but that we all seem to want the same thing. That which we were promised, and more leadership and direction from the 'top'. Of course as i've said earlier multiple times, communication is vital. Now at least hopefully Weeble will be able to keep us in touch with the developments of the game (apparently there will be none for almost a year). Should he fulfill the role of 'communicator' from you to the playerbase that would be just lovely.

Unfortunately now it appears to be too late since you've already let us know the entire game is on pause until you get your RPG into beta testing. Given the tendency of deadlines to slide, it appears to me that we're going to be playing a corpse of a game for some time until you appear satisfied with your RPG. Assuming you do get this game launched, are you going to put IT on pause and return to Bushtarion? Because let's be honest here, new games launched almost invariably require a significant amount of attention to deal with bugs and get it 'stable' and running. Perhaps you intend to finish the beta testing and then get Bushtarion fixed (age 5 finally maybe?) before launching the RPG? I dunno but it strikes me that it's extremely unlikely that you will return with a large amount of attention and focus to bushtarion if you're involved in launching a massive new RPG. Hopefully i'm wrong.

As for Weeble not playing the game in an active role (allianced, high ranked, playing "properly") - that is key to his position. ANYONE that was actively playing the game and involved in some way would become target for gross conspiracies sooner or later the moment anything happened to anyone that had been their "enemies" in-game past or present, and the griping would then be "OMG why has Azzer appointed someone that's clearly going to be biased".

I don't think he should be involved in the politics at all for the very reasons you state. However, toby did have a point when he asked whether or not Weeble truly does understand how the ingame mechanics work? I mean i'm a (relatively) veteran player but fully admit i'm not very knowledgeable about the game. I don't know the last time Weeble played, or even if he plays at all but it strikes me that someone responsible for being your link to the playerbase should at least understand how the game works, and especially the feeling of being a player who is, more often than not, in the dark. I may well stand corrected if he turns out to be a bushtarion genius, but i just thought i'd get that cleared up.

I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but it seems that Weeble is a very large unknown quantity for many players in this game. That makes him, at least in my opinion, somewhat hard to approach for the majority of players, especially new ones.

I would have expected someone who is essentially taking over the Community and Communication portion of the game to have garnered, one way or another, the respect of a significant portion of the playerbase. From the conversing i have done with my fellow players (again limited by those whom i know) we are not all very thrilled about Weeble. I don't find him to be particularly able to command the respect of the playerbase, or hell, even to earn it. I could be wrong here and be in my own little world with my friends, but I don't think I am. Sure, he doesn't *have* to be respected, but it might help improve the quality of communication with the playerbase if people respected him. Someone like Darryl, for example, would have been the best Community Manager. He was well liked, well respected, and beyond fair. That man was a stickler for fairness to friends and enemies alike. I know it's not fair to compare Weeble (or anyone for that matter) to Darryl, but it's a fairly good example of the calibre of players we have lost.

Second edit: Just pasting in from the latest news/updates announce:
Age 5.5/age 6, is not going to come in less than 12 months after Age 5. It's going to be coming around Summer time 2010 by current time projections. I've taken a 12-18 month break to work on another project in the past - between ages 3 and 4, and I've taken many minor breaks to do little bits (the odd month here and there) on my current RPG project in the past... I'm now making one major push on the RPG project to get it out the first half of this year and then you will have me back. Please keep in mind the above timeline when you start thinking about "lack of updates" to the game... and be happy... it's a new decade, new things to come
---
I think people just need to put things in to perspective a bit more. Players have gotten far more needy in recent rounds.

Summer 2010 for Age 5 core mechanics. That's a pretty long time to wait. As we mentioned before, we're not clamouring for 'new' changes, we're clamouring for the mechanics we were led to believe we would be given. Again, as i said earlier, it strikes me as unlikely that you'll be back full (or even a quarter) throttle for bushtarion if you intend upon launching your RPG in the first half of this year. Especially if you expected to have the FC (and whatnot) all set to go for the Summer of 2010.

If it's enough time to get them set to go for Bushtarion in the few months between the RPG release the Summer, wouldn't it make more sense to have it implemented *before* you take a large chunk of time off to work on your RPG? I know i would prefer to have those mechanics inserted (possibly tweaked) and then when you have a balanced, stable and (hopefully) enjoyable game experience, you could then get to work on your RPG. Instead you seem to be interrupting bushtarion mid age, with mechanics half in the works, to take off and try to get your RPG off the ground. Seems to me like that's just a particularly odd decision.

Anyways, the moral of this particularly long story is that as a playerbase, in this day and age of instantaneous communication we expect a certain amount of update information to let us know where we are in relation to release dates. Or even keep us relatively well informed as to whether or not things are going well, stalled, or totally changed. We also aren't lambasting you for not producing brand new updates every year, we're a little pissed off that you've simply abandoned a large percentage of the updates we expected simply to work on another game.

My apologies for such a long read. 15 minutes you'll never be getting back

 

[Davis]

[ 21:52:42 ] (Davis) This is the response simply because you've left us, once again, in the dark without any knowledge about these updates that we were expecting. It's not our fault we feel let down because we haven't been given the updates we thought we were getting. Age 5 was a majorly superficial update with what appeared to be some minor mechanic changes. We were expecting a few other things, like BH, FC, a Manual, a functioning Alliance War system, an the Advertising you told us we were going to have for Age 5. We are only clamouring for that which we were told we were going to get."
[ 21:52:43 ] (Davis) this
[ 21:52:56 ] (Davis) I mean seriously what did he do to even make it "age 5"
[ 21:53:06 ] (Davis) he did mid round tweek material
[ 21:53:12 ] (Davis) nothing "new age" worth


I also find it kind of upsetting how you posted this huge long thing of what your going to do made a bunch of claims against your comunity and gave no way for us to say what we thought about what you said without making a new thread that will inevitably be locked. I mean if you're going to run a game (or maybe have a comunity manager run it while you focus on another game) and you're telling us whats going on, give us a chance for feed back. I'm just going to say after seeing how you're prioritizing, and the rate that this game is currently decaying I can almost garentee that by the time you're "done with your RPG" there wont be a bushtarion to come back to and fix up.

This game has from my knowledge been your income for quite some time, and now you're treating it like its somewhat meaningless leaving us with some new "leader" who few approve of, without any reasoning of why it was him, it just kind of "happened", not making updates till some other game thats making you no money is "ready" what happens when youre focused one this other game and this one dies? wheres the money come from to fund the new one?

I personally see bushtarion as you "job" and most people that have a job, have to show up to their job every day and do work for it to get paid. now i'm not expecting you to work on it every day but i mean a few months? a year? Thats grounds for dismissal in most jobs. You really cant put it on the back burner and expect things to work out how you want.

 

[Azzer]

The game is no more "broken" right now than it always has been - by that I mean in earlier ages the mechanic was "massively broken" because there was no reason for huge farmers not to farm non-stop over and over people at 10-15% of their score. People complained about it in huge wealths but the game continued until a new age happened.

Then there was the law/fame/honour systems. That was designed to "fix" the above but while it kind of did, it generated new complaints from vocal minorities about how "massively broken" the game was because it could be avoided, ignored, score was more important, there were loopholes.

Then this "broken" system was removed again and score was brought back as the main ranking, and suddenly we, obviously, went back to the earlier state of Bushtarion, but with promises of "the perfect world" where we'd have a perfect undefeatable symmetry between the two. A promise I'm hoping is going to be possible and introduced, but I have no doubt that when a new fairness calc is brought in, and land caps and stuff are tied to it, there will be new complaints about how massively broken it is because the land caps stagnate the game at a particular ranking or this or that.

Basically there's never, ever, ever been a period in any age of Bushtarion's long lifespan where there hasn't been at the very least a very very vocal minority, at the most a near riot, talking about "how massively broken" things are - purely because when some players don't like something, they find that the best way to get it fixed is to go as public as they can, as loud as they can, get as many people agreeing with them just as vocally as they can, and demand changes.

To suggest that in all previous instances of ages - the examples I gave on my post of the gaps I've taken before - were all miraculous perfections of games - would be ignorant at best. Pretending that the current state of mechanics are uniquely different to any other period of times would be wrong. The only difference this time is I've given you a taste of things to come with my "planned updated" - because a vocal minority demanded I do such a thing lest they throw a riot. And now that taster has been given but with a time delay on it (a time delay matching no more or less every other age's time delays), suddenly those tasters I gave were terrible as they simply prove that the current game is "unfinished".

Honestly Alci, I cannot "win", I will not "win", there is nothing for me to "win", all I can do is continue to progress Bushtarion at a rate with which it has always progressed, and watch in dismay as ever increasingly players start taking their demands to other players, suggesting that other players all stop purchasing in an attempt to intentionally kill the game off ("if we can't have what we want, let's try and destroy it, that'll teach him").

This timescale is no different to any other timescale. The only change is you now have been told of things to come, because players asked for it.

The reason I locked the other thread is because I do not think a discussion where players are trying to openly encourage other players to destroy the game is a good thing. And if I see posts like those (you did not post such a thing though Alci, don't worry, I spotted the names of who did ) again I will take it as an attack on the game and business itself... the same way people exploiting rules or causing havoc in the community would be an attack on the game or business itself, and deal with those individuals harshly. Posts I refer to are ones like "hey everyone I'm unhappy, I'm voicing my opinions, but now I'm going to try and encourage everyone to ruin the game even more by making everyone stop playing and stop purchasing". Not constructive and not going to help any situation.

Davis: Age 5 changelog.
http://www.bushtarion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1558
Yes, just common minor mid-round stuff that happens every round... good man.

 

[Cheese]

Took the words out of my mouth. Agree with everything you have said Alci.
This is a very serious matter and needs discussing and I hope you don't just bury you're head in the sand and lock / delete it Azzer.

I understand nobody is perfect, coding can take alot of time and may sometimes not be finished on schedule, but we need updating even just once a month so we know you still actually give a damn about this game.

Admitting you are abandoning the game for the release of a new game really doesn't make me want to put my money into this game anymore and after speaking to quite a few other people (who every round put money in you're pocket) they feel the same.

Edit Azzer posted while I was writing:

Honestly Alci, I cannot "win", I will not "win", there is nothing for me to "win", all I can do is continue to progress Bushtarion at a rate with which it has always progressed, and watch in dismay as ever increasingly players start taking their demands to other players, suggesting that other players all stop purchasing in an attempt to intentionally kill the game off ("if we can't have what we want, let's try and destroy it, that'll teach him").

I am in no way trying to destroy the game I am trying to explain to you that if you want people to keep putting their hard earned cash into the game then you need to likewise earn it. And I along with quite a number of other people don't feel you are earning that cash no more.


If Alci is banned for posting this thread will you please ban me aswell as I want no part in this community if that is how you deal with this problem.

 

[Davis]

I'm Dav*i*s

 

[Azzer]

I'm Dav*i*s

Sorry It is 3:20 AM, and I have been up since 7 in the morning!

 

[tobapopalos]

Azzer - There is a pretty simple complaint here, and that is that the playerbase have not received what you promised them. Everybody I have spoken to was pretty excited about the new fairness calculator, but it hasn't materialised.

And the advertising which was proposed, also about a year ago, never materialised either. This, I feel, is much more important, as the playerbase is declining fairly rapidly and we need to get fresh blood in.

I don't feel there are many problems in the game as it stands. The fairness calculator will be a nice addition when it arrives (rather sooner than later). But at this rate by the time it arrives there will only be a few players left to enjoy it.

Also, I find it depressing that we have to go to these lengths to get the slightest bit of attention. Posting these sorts of threads should not be necessary to provoke a public appearance from our admin.

 

[Azzer]

Azzer - There is a pretty simple complaint here, and that is that the playerbase have not received what you promised them. Everybody I have spoken to was pretty excited about the new fairness calculator, but it hasn't materialised.

And the advertising which was proposed, also about a year ago, never materialised either. This, I feel, is much more important, as the playerbase is declining fairly rapidly and we need to get fresh blood in.

I don't feel there are many problems in the game as it stands. The fairness calculator will be a nice addition when it arrives (rather sooner than later). But at this rate by the time it arrives there will only be a few players left to enjoy it.

Also, I find it depressing that we have to go to these lengths to get the slightest bit of attention. Posting these sorts of threads should not be necessary to provoke a public appearance from our admin.

That's a much more reasonable post than I have been seeing Tobs, thanks, and it does help me understand it a bit better. I've never been a good communicator, I speak brashly, bluntly, and often on impulse. There's all sorts of things going on behind the scenes because of me being a 1 man band (rather than a business with a team of employees that can continue working in any situation between themselves), and having all sorts of private life family things going on that I really do not want to divulge only to have torn apart by players mocking/digging/dismissing it lately, that led to delays on things and essential changes of plans. I want to see Bushtarion continue beyond it's 10th birthday as much as anyone. I haven't "abandoned" the game in any permanent manner, I'm just taking a break to get this RPG done *AND* because I needed a break from Bushtarion (certain aspects of the community in the past couple of years had really disillusioned me about why I was in this all, not helped by real life non-business related matters).

Yes it is a shame that it took such posts to get a response by me - but was it really the response you wanted? Poking me repeatedly with a sharp stick until I scream and shout and threaten to poke people back with a sharp stick isn't going to generate anything people ACTUALLY want or need, it's just going to make me look like an angry Azzer and the stick pokers look like silly stick pokers.

"Doom & Gloom" threads do nothing but depress me, depress other players, and encourage players to feel doom & gloomy themselves. Doom & gloom is a nasty and infectious emotion! It does not generate positive attitude, constructive creations, or good results. It generates sharp angry sticks!

I shouldn't need to keep posting every month just to say "Hey guys, I'm still alive, look I can still post announcements, I'm still doing what I said I would be doing last month, still coding the RPG, still going to be finished round abouts when I said, still going to come back to Bushtarion afterwards to work on more cool updates"... is that really necessary to stop people "going off on one"? I can do it, but I'll feel damn silly doing it Needs must though...

 

[tobapopalos]

I shouldn't need to keep posting every month just to say "Hey guys, I'm still alive, look I can still post announcements, I'm still doing what I said I would be doing last month, still coding the RPG, still going to be finished round abouts when I said, still going to come back to Bushtarion afterwards to work on more cool updates"... is that really necessary to stop people "going off on one"? I can do it, but I'll feel damn silly doing it Needs must though...

With such a small playerbase I think it's important that you try and keep up some sort of presence, especially as you are our only admin. It isn't just for the news/updates, but also for ingame issues, such as multis/troop traders etc. When you don't post on forums or come on IRC for a while it feels like people can do whatever the hell they like and get away with it. And it is frustrating for those of us who take such things rather seriously (like myself).

This presence doesn't have to be in the form of an update. You could just pop onto IRC to say hi, or post something daft on forums. You have no idea how much that helps the atmosphere around here.

PS: We really need some new IRC ops.

 

[Alcibiades]

I shouldn't need to keep posting every month just to say "Hey guys, I'm still alive, look I can still post announcements, I'm still doing what I said I would be doing last month, still coding the RPG, still going to be finished round abouts when I said, still going to come back to Bushtarion afterwards to work on more cool updates"... is that really necessary to stop people "going off on one"? I can do it, but I'll feel damn silly doing it Needs must though...

This is where we disagree it appears. I genuinely feel that we should be 'in the loop' as it were. Being left out in the cold, especially for this generation, is quite unpleasant and makes us feel like we are abandoned whether or not that is the case. And we don't necessarily need an update once a month, but once every little while would be vastly appreciated. Currently, we don't know anything about the future plans of the game, including the mechanics we were expecting months ago. I can't honestly expect that you seriously disagree with this.

I shouldn't need to keep posting every month just to say "Hey guys, I'm still alive, look I can still post announcements, I'm still doing what I said I would be doing last month, still coding the RPG, still going to be finished round abouts when I said, still going to come back to Bushtarion afterwards to work on more cool updates"... is that really necessary to stop people "going off on one"? I can do it, but I'll feel damn silly doing it Needs must though...

With such a small playerbase I think it's important that you try and keep up some sort of presence, especially as you are our only admin. It isn't just for the news/updates, but also for ingame issues, such as multis/troop traders etc. When you don't post on forums or come on IRC for a while it feels like people can do whatever the hell they like and get away with it. And it is frustrating for those of us who take such things rather seriously (like myself).

This presence doesn't have to be in the form of an update. You could just pop onto IRC to say hi, or post something daft on forums. You have no idea how much that helps the atmosphere around here.

100% true, very much endorsed! A little levity would vastly improve the atmosphere around here. Not just from you either, but for the whole playerbase to do! A little laughter makes everyone feel much better.

 

[Azzer]

I'll see what I can work on with you all, I just don't want people seeing me taking part in fun threads here and having a laugh and hanging out/idling in IRC while I code on other things, while the features of Bushtarion are on hold while I code on something else, and interpret seeing me "joining in" with the forums as me taking the mickey out of the whole situation (like "here I am but I'm not doing much, LOLOLOL!")

I can has hugs time now?

 

[marvin]

*hugs*

 

[TehPantz]

Hugs!

 

[Ogluk]

ps: We really need some new irc ops.

qft!!!!

 

[atsanjose]

i dont see any problems in the game mechanics atm at all.

- no people are exploiting bountyhunting which affects the course of the round
- and that fairness calc is just an extra, not a total necessity

only thing that needs attention is the supervision on cheating in the game, and weeble can pretty much do that on his own.

 

[Steve_God]

Weeble is more than adequate for the role I feel!
If players raise concerns with him that he's not sure of due to being not involved, then there's a whole team of Helpers and Moderators that are available on hand to help him get to the bottom of issues

 

[Davs]

I have no problems with Weeble for this job. I can't say that I think he's the best forum mod I've ever seen, but as far as the job of "community manager" goes I think he should do a reasonable job - especially with the team of helpers and mods (as mentioned by Steve) there to back him up.

 

[Alcibiades]

i dont see any problems in the game mechanics atm at all.

- no people are exploiting bountyhunting which affects the course of the round
- and that fairness calc is just an extra, not a total necessity

You need to look harder then if you can't see the issues.

 

[LAFiN]

I think the issue for most of us was that we were sort of promised another big update, with the fairness calculator kicking into effect shortly after the Age 5 code was introduced and were fed news that it was on its way. But after 4 or 5 rounds since then, there's been no new news on it and we've grown wearisome with when it is, or if it is, going to come.

I know that was one of the things I've been looking forward to for quite some time, and was just hoping that it was on its way. I definitely understand Azzer wants to work on his other projects, and he should, but with the way past news releases and forum topics, etc being what they have been, I think some of us feel cheated that we've not yet been handed down certain "upgrades."

My big gripe has been that the updates really haven't answered any of the communities questions. It's just been Azzer defending himself and explaining he's got a lot going on. Give us a definitive answer and I'd bet a bit of the complaining would stop.

 

[Razorwolf]

I think some of us feel cheated that we've not yet been handed down certain "upgrades."

i have a question.
the "upgrades" you are referring to... are they really necessary or just a simple bonus to make this game more enjoyable for you. I mean azzer needs to have priorities too, and obviously the rpg has taken first place.

You know it doesn't necessarily mean he's given up on the game, for all you know he really wants to give you guys everything he said he would.. sometimes you cant always get what you want, when you want... and in the long run complaining on the forums when azzer has already stated what he is planning on doing isn't going to change anything.