Approaching leadership

BlackWolf

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,217
Location
Lappeenranta, Finland (Wolf territory)
I was thinking of posting to help section, but as that is only for asking stuff i couldnt think any better place than this. If someone feels insulted of this then dont read or ask mods to move this.
It ispretty long, but you are not forced to read. Also this is only first edition of this matter and hopefully i will have time in the future to make it more in depth view to leading and being leader.

Approaching leadership

The following text is about leadership and especially about leadership in online games. You should be notified of that I don’t say that I know it all or that I know anything about leading or leadership. This is my view to it and there are as many views as there are leaders. In the following I will approach leading from few angles and viewpoints and give some advices. Weather you think those are true or not are up to you. You are not forced to read so please if you do keep your opinions of my viewpoints to yourself. You can of course discuss about this matter with others but thinking you know the fact and I don’t doesn’t make your job any easier.

So let’s start from basics. What is leadership? Leadership is being the one who makes all those hard decisions and takes the blame from all mistakes. That’s the simplicity of leading. Leader will hardly ever be praised and even less they are thanked. Usually leader ends up to be the spitting can of the rest of the team. At the same time leading is most rewarding. It gives results in most showing way and person can find lots of satisfaction from knowing and seeing he was the one behind it all. At the end of the day leader is only as good as the team is allowing him to be but we will return to that later.

In the following I will try to answer to few questions. Main question is what are principles of good leadership? Followed by what is good leader a like? We will go through some basic team structures as part of leading and leadership as well as will have few words about politics and human relations. I hope you will have some fun reading this or don’t read it at all. (I prefer the later ;) ) So let’s get started.

Leading and principles

Team is only as strong as its weakest link is. In modern internet gaming culture this has lead to “players market” where every player is replaceable with someone else whom on paper seems better. Let those players be ranked amongst skill, activity or friendliness doesn’t really matter as it’s not the whole truth. Situation can be seen from other angle too. Team is only as good as its leader is making it to be and as good as its members allows its leader to be. These things are making triangle which all or none are balancing each others. Yet some things are more important than others. Good leader cant success in command of completely useless members, while good team can collapse under bad leader. Worst case is one where there’s good leader and great team, but team doesn’t see their leader as good one and it ends up to inner difficulties which makes success impossible.

So to which are should good leader focus? To himself. Its only are you can become an expert and where you can improve. Getting better players and trying to force certain structures to improve your authority are minor parts in good leading. Key part to be leader is to understand your never good leader. Optimal leader is one who doesn’t see himself as good leader, but sees himself as someone who wants to become better leader. It simply means you are thrived to learn new things about leading, yourself and others all the time. Such persons reads this all through not only cause they think its fun to see how someone is stating obvious but because they think from everything they see and read they can learn something new. Basic example of bad leader type is the guy who reads this through and only compares it to his own opinions and then forgets it all as stupid mumble and as correctly wrong. I may be wrong, but yet I’m making points which are making you to think you leading as more than just sitting on chair above others.

To understand this concept one must understand himself. That is the main problem of leading. How you can lead others and expect them to be lead if you don’t yourself know of what you sound and are? Leader is the guy who all the time seeks to improve his knowledge about his own skills and specially his own weaknesses. Same time leader is seeking to know everything he can about the ones he lead and the atmosphere where he leads.

To sum all this up:
1. Learn everything you can from every source you can.
- There is no such thing as bollocks information.
2. Know more than others.
- Leader seeks to know everything he can of his team and its members. Leaders are expected to know and remember things like names, places where people stay etc. (no one is telling you can’t cheat and keep records!)
3. Know yourself.
- Leader never sees himself as complete all knowing person but one who knows less more he learns.
4. Learn and know your weaknesses.
- Leader thrives to be better than he currently is. To reach this goal you must be able to know your weaknesses. If you know your weaknesses you can overcome them or at least try. The day you think you don’t have weakness is the day your not good leader.

Those 4 are the ones we add to our list and then we move on to next “chapter”


How leader works as the head of the team

Being leader is not an easy task, its task that requires more discipline and patience than any other. Leader is the one who’s always being blamed of every bad thing and hardly ever gets thanked of good things. Yet you are expected to carry more than your own weight on your shoulders. So how actually leader works? There are numerous approaches to this matter and these kinds of lists are often seen in leading literacy I will list here only few basic approaches to this matter.

Charismatic leader
First and most known one is charismatic leader. There are many examples of such leading (way more than others) and most of those are connected to negative things. In this matter you should not! Such examples like Napoleon and Hitler are basic examples of GOOD charismatic leader. They were persons who were able to get their team to follow them to hell and back by being good talkers. At the same time such examples are shown of bad leading because these persons were not able to overcome their own weaknesses, such as power hunger and though of being invincible. Yet they are examples of how powerful can good charismatic leader be. Charismatic leaders are basic example in internet gaming too. Usually people who ends up leading are ones who have the guts to take responsibility and who have some social skills yet more often are driven by hunger for victory and are ready to do anything its demanded to get there. This leader type even successful one is really vulnerable to leaders’ personal problems such as arrogance.

Social leader
Another leader type is social leader. These are the person whom gets their leading position from being most social and nicest persons towards all. This is often confused to charismatic leadership but it shouldn’t. Where charismatic leaders are often seen as dictators social leaders are seen as good buddies. Often members see their leader to not to be leader but to be so good fella they really don’t mind of him/her leading. Good social leaders are rare thing and especially in internet gaming seeing successful social leader is more exception than anything else. I don’t say that social leading is bad way to lead, but in such environment as internet gaming its negative sides often overcomes good sides. That’s why really good social leaders are insanely successful yet rare.

Example leader
“Example” leader (couldn’t think better name) is leader who is seen as best of all. This type of leader is basic example of WW2 best platoon leaders. Such person is actually much better leader of smaller “battle groups” than as leader of bigger alliance. These guys usually end up in army to be sergeants as they are the ones who can work in tight situations under pressure. Such leader type is based on being example to others. Such leader goes in to battle as first and leaves the battlefield as last. They are highly respected amongst their team by their will to sacrifice their own safety for their teams well being. Where this type of leaders is effective and respected it’s also hard to maintain among larger groups of people simply because leader can’t be in all places at same time.

Above are 3 basic examples of different leader types. Those are 3 main ones I wanted to list, yet there’s much more of such and even each of those 3 can be divided to sub categories. I will as last introduce 4th type which isn’t type alone but actually what should be goal of every leader.

Combining leader
Combining leader is type to be seen as combination of all leadership types. This is hardest to reach and even harder to upkeep, but same time its only way to overcome weaknesses of every basic leading types weaknesses. It may sound like its obvious, but it really is not. For someone who is charismatic leader it may be hard to lead by example as well as for social leader it is to do decisions that hurts certain persons even if those are only realistic option to be made.

We can now add to our list of principles 2 more.

1. Learn everything you can from every source you can.
- There is no such thing as bollocks information.
2. Know more than others.
- Leader seeks to know everything he can of his team and its members. Leaders are expected to know and remember things like names, places where people stay etc. (no one is telling you can’t cheat and keep records!)
3. Know yourself.
- Leader never sees himself as complete all knowing person but one who knows less more he learns.
4. Learn and know your weaknesses.
- Leader thrives to be better than he currently is. To reach this goal you must be able to know your weaknesses. If you know your weaknesses you can overcome them or at least try. The day you think you don’t have weakness is the day your not good leader.
5. Know what kind of leader you are.
- Leader is often certain type of person who is falling to trap of his own personality. Good leader can’t afford that but needs to overcome such and be able to step out of that picture.
6. Aim to become combining leader.
- Even there’s no set thing what kind of leader must or should be you should aim to be leader who is not leader of any type but all types together.


Structure to support leading

Often amongst internet gaming things are seen as black and white. People only see what suites them best and if it doesn’t it must be bad. Structure of teams is often confused to leading and what type of leaders there are. It can be easily said that armies of the world have certain structure for reason. This kind of hierarchy is based on battlefields and thousands years of learning by trial and error. Yet this kind of system is not best for all situations and good leader is able to decide beast system for all situations based on surroundings and team. To make this simpler we will start from basic army hierarchy and then move towards more open systems and how those are actually way to support leading not how leading must be if certain structure is used.

Basic army hierarchy
Army hierarchy can be seen simply as pyramid. Where leader is on top of the pyramid followed by larger and larger number of people on lower steps of it and ending up to lowest step where the main members are. Such structure is based on fact that at battlefield every member of team must know who their authority is, to be able to work effectively. This can be seen as simple system where what ever becomes as obstacle members always have someone to ask “what to do” from. This structures biggest weakness is inner problems. It consists mainly of 2 problems. One is problem of authorities and taking orders. Some people don’t like to be ordered to do something or they might think they know better than the one who is giving orders. And another problem is multiple different orders problem where members receive different orders depending of whom they ask from. Both are reducing usefulness of this system a lot. Yet while working well this structure is base for best battlefield teams out there.

At the heart of this is usually some kind of ranks system where usually best members are awarded by higher place in inner rankings and as such it’s driving members to be better and better and give more for the team to reach more voice inside team.

Situational / project structure
Situational structure is based on strengths and weaknesses of individuals. In such structure team uses best available person for each task. Its main strength is that at every situation there’s for sure “the best man on the job”. This person can be nominated for the job by few different ways such as voting or by order of higher authorities. Main problem of this kind of system comes from situations where there are multiple nearly as good persons for the task or there is no good person for that task. This kind of situations usually ends up to wasting time and effort to organize teams inside problems while there would be something more important to focus at. Yet if team is welded together enough or there’s well working hierarchy in team this kind of structure can work very well in all situations and be highly rewarding.

As mentioned earlier this kind of structure can work under different kind of leadership and shouldn’t be tied to only one kind of leading.

Divisional structure
Divisional structure is based on dividing members to teams inside main team. These teams can be based on location (for example time zones) or strengths, skills, you name it. These teams’ works as individual groups inside one bigger group. All these teams have their own structure of some sort and their named leaders are responsible to leader or another team. This structure takes advantage of strengths of the team in certain areas and uses those to get advantage. Main problem of this system is communication between teams and that members are in the end responsible to 2 “leaders”. While such structure is very good at taking advantage of teams’ strengths and inner competition drives teams to overcome each others, it may also risk whole group inner integrity if members lose the feel of being same group with other teams.

Open structure
This structure is based on that everyone is doing everything. There can be named leader, but still leading is actually done more by group together than by individuals or set leader(s). This structures strength is in that everyone feels like they are equal and as such they give their best for their common goal together. Same way this systems weakness is in that when something big is happening this kind of structure is very slow to change its course and to react to things. Also in case of problem it may turn to blaming contest of each others as group doesn’t have single operator whom to blame.

Hybrid structure
As last I introduce hybrid structure which aim is to take advantages of all or some of above structures yet overcome those weaknesses. Hybrid structures are much harder to upkeep and to make work well, yet same time is providing best combination of structures for each situation and environment.

Unlike in earlier structures I will give here one example of such hybrid structure which is based on my own leading experience.
ViruS (in bushtarion) was based on hybrid of hierarchy, project and divisional structure. While it had one leader it also had co leaders called HC (head council). Under that was group of officers and then rest were members. While that sounds basic army hierarchy inside that structure was officers and HC selected from those who had special skills for certain tasks. Some were better at battlefield and tactics and others were focusing to members and their personal problems and up keep of good atmosphere. To top of this were members encouraged to form groups of time zones, skill and routes which were working together to achieve best possible land gain under normal situations. Where during wars groups were abandoned and whole alliance worked as one to reach its goal together.

That is only one example of hybrid structure. I don’t way it’s best or even good. It is one we used and you should learn what is best for your leading style and your group and environment. As such we add 2 sections more to our principles.

1. Learn everything you can from every source you can.
- There is no such thing as bollocks information.
2. Know more than others.
- Leader seeks to know everything he can of his team and its members. Leaders are expected to know and remember things like names, places where people stay etc. (no one is telling you can’t cheat and keep records!)
3. Know yourself.
- Leader never sees himself as complete all knowing person but one who knows less more he learns.
4. Learn and know your weaknesses.
- Leader thrives to be better than he currently is. To reach this goal you must be able to know your weaknesses. If you know your weaknesses you can overcome them or at least try. The day you think you don’t have weakness is the day your not good leader.
5. Know what kind of leader you are.
- Leader is often certain type of person who is falling to trap of his own personality. Good leader can’t afford that but needs to overcome such and be able to step out of that picture.
6. Aim to become combining leader.
- Even there’s no set thing what kind of leader must or should be you should aim to be leader who is not leader of any type but all types together.
7. Learn and remember different structures. Learn how to use those and combine those.
- Study leadership and structures and learn different basic structure models and their strengths and weaknesses. Don’t only read go ahead and try.
8. Study your environment and team and try to find best structure to suite your needs.
- Its easy to confuse structure and different kind of leadership style. Yet more important is to understand that structure supports leading as well as leading supports structure. You as leader must find best structure and leading style for your members and environment.



Human resources

Humans are different. We all have our strong and weak points. While selecting best of the best or so called players market has been increasing all the time in internet gaming is often forgot that team is not based on individuals but best individual for each task working as team. This is something that is easily misunderstood and overlooked by lots of leaders and players. Making team of the best players of some game doesn’t necessary mean hey are best team or will win. Having 10 best goal makers in one football team doesn’t make that team winner as they must defend and pass that ball along too. Its often so that those people doing the hard dirty work in the background doesn’t get as much name as ones scoring most, yet often without those dirty workers these scorers are next to useless. Teams are and should be based on certain predetermined positions which need to be filled with best person for that job. All teams needs as much good spirit makers as well as those who let others takes glory. And all teams also need those who can make the score. Building the team is still nothing as important as is that how that team and its strengths are used. If you have less scorers you must work more as a team and if you have more scorers you must give them more possibilities to use their talent. This kind of balancing and fine tuning is what makes good leaders excellent leaders and what makes good teams to become best. Team is only as strong as its weakest link is and that weakest link may as well be that soloing scorer as it may be that not so good player but good spirit maker.

We will now add 9th line to our principles.

1. Learn everything you can from every source you can.
- There is no such thing as bollocks information.
2. Know more than others.
- Leader seeks to know everything he can of his team and its members. Leaders are expected to know and remember things like names, places where people stay etc. (no one is telling you can’t cheat and keep records!)
3. Know yourself.
- Leader never sees himself as complete all knowing person but one who knows less more he learns.
4. Learn and know your weaknesses.
- Leader thrives to be better than he currently is. To reach this goal you must be able to know your weaknesses. If you know your weaknesses you can overcome them or at least try. The day you think you don’t have weakness is the day your not good leader.
5. Know what kind of leader you are.
- Leader is often certain type of person who is falling to trap of his own personality. Good leader can’t afford that but needs to overcome such and be able to step out of that picture.
6. Aim to become combining leader.
- Even there’s no set thing what kind of leader must or should be you should aim to be leader who is not leader of any type but all types together.
7. Learn and remember different structures. Learn how to use those and combine those.
- Study leadership and structures and learn different basic structure models and their strengths and weaknesses. Don’t only read go ahead and try.
8. Study your environment and team and try to find best structure to suite your needs.
- Its easy to confuse structure and different kind of leadership style. Yet more important is to understand that structure supports leading as well as leading supports structure. You as leader must find best structure and leading style for your members and environment.
9. Team is only as good as its weakest link. Learn to strengthen weak even in expense of strong.
- This may sound stupid, but basically it means not caring so much of whom you pick to your team, it means more that making best to help less good and other way around. Strengthen the weaknesses of team.


Leading and personality


As last I will talk a bit about personalities. Every team is in a way image of its leader. Teams are usually strong on same areas as their leader is and same way are weak on what their leader is weak. This all reflects straight from leaders’ personality. Personality is affected by background, birth place, parents, age etc. all that reflect to how certain leaders work in certain situations. It’s often said that young leaders are more aggressive and risk taking than old leaders. Same way old leaders usually know their weaknesses better than young ones. This doesn’t mean that older leaders are better; it simply means that personality is affected by age. So what kind of person is good leader then? No one can answer to that but we can do some basic generalizations about it. To put it simple good leader is humble and never thinks he (or she) knows the truth. Same way good leader is person who knows his weaknesses and can seek ways to over come those. If you’re not good people person then you must overcome that by finding someone who is to help you. Same way if you don’t know ins and outs of some game then find one who does. Going rear end forward to tree is not sign of good leader. Instead finding someone to help you (to go rear end forward to that same tree) is. It is hard for everyone to admit to themselves they are not so good at something, yet this kind of personal problems can be straight seen from teams. If leader is neurotic about his hierarchy it can be seen from whole teams actions, as well as if leader has problems with admitting he doesn’t know something it can end up to whole teams inner destruction when members doesn’t respect their leader anymore. Examples of such things are numerous yet all of those end up to one final principle of ours.

1. Learn everything you can from every source you can.
- There is no such thing as bollocks information.
2. Know more than others.
- Leader seeks to know everything he can of his team and its members. Leaders are expected to know and remember things like names, places where people stay etc. (no one is telling you can’t cheat and keep records!)
3. Know yourself.
- Leader never sees himself as complete all knowing person but one who knows less more he learns.
4. Learn and know your weaknesses.
- Leader thrives to be better than he currently is. To reach this goal you must be able to know your weaknesses. If you know your weaknesses you can overcome them or at least try. The day you think you don’t have weakness is the day your not good leader.
5. Know what kind of leader you are.
- Leader is often certain type of person who is falling to trap of his own personality. Good leader can’t afford that but needs to overcome such and be able to step out of that picture.
6. Aim to become combining leader.
- Even there’s no set thing what kind of leader must or should be you should aim to be leader who is not leader of any type but all types together.
7. Learn and remember different structures. Learn how to use those and combine those.
- Study leadership and structures and learn different basic structure models and their strengths and weaknesses. Don’t only read go ahead and try.
8. Study your environment and team and try to find best structure to suite your needs.
- Its easy to confuse structure and different kind of leadership style. Yet more important is to understand that structure supports leading as well as leading supports structure. You as leader must find best structure and leading style for your members and environment.
9. Team is only as good as its weakest link. Learn to strengthen weak even in expense of strong.
- This may sound stupid, but basically it means not caring so much of whom you pick to your team, it means more that making best to help less good and other way around. Strengthen the weaknesses of team.
10. Be honest to yourself. Over come first yourself and then become leader who can overcome others.
- If your not ready to accept your not perfect then your not leader. Good leader is never perfect, but far from it. Still good leader tries his best to find his own weaknesses and overcome those.



There that’s my list of 10 principles of being good leader. I don’t say this is only way to see things or that this is right way. I say it’s my way. If you have read this far you must have learned something if not then your not good leader. I think I learned something while writing this and as such I think I’m now bit better leader than I was when I began to write this.

There are 2 more things I’m forced to mention here:
1. I think majority of good leaders are females. Yet English as language is writing of males not females and as such it may give wrong perspective to females. I respect females as leaders usually above males.
2. This I wrote is only scratch to surface of leading and leadership. There are lots and lots of books about leading in corporation and army world. Those are not more or less good when brought to internet gaming but I’m sure books you read about leading aren’t harming you. Some things might be less easy to understand in gaming concept and some are far easier to introduce straight to internet gaming, yet all information you can gather from as many sources as possible are the steps among the road to become better leader. But only if you want to become better leader. Do you?
 

Martin

Garden Designer
Super Moderator
Community Operator
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
970
Location
England
Re: Approaching leadership

I've not read BW's post but I'd like to add in:

If you need to read a manual to lead, then you don't have the balls to try things and work it out on your own!
 

BlackWolf

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,217
Location
Lappeenranta, Finland (Wolf territory)
Re: Approaching leadership

Leadership is a skill. You cant become pro or good at anything without practising. You people have practised Bushtarion, some of you hours, days, months or like me been playing it day after day and studying it for years. Why do you see that as such big deal to spend 30 minutes reading some introduction to basics of leading.
The whole idea of that post was to allow people to see more in leading than just what they have seen in it so far. There was not that far ago debates about leading and leadership on forums which brought this all in to my mind... but to answer IOF questions i will go through those one by one.

1. What made you do that?
I studied hours a day for 3 month to examn (which went to hell btw thanks from asking) one of those books were about leading. So i had my head full of stuff. I have also erad about leading from other sources and from other books. So i really thought something for every leader who sees and understoods that leading is a skill that can be learned is needed.
There are hundreds books of learning both army and corporate things. These kind of stuff are what is teached in business colleges etc. Maby you understand bit about leading of companies too after reading that.

2. Have we been foolish in thinking this is a game? How serious are you taking it?
There are crap load long manual in bushtarion. I read it. I also have read maby longer EULA of bush to learn that too. I think many of us have. But there has not been anything about leading alliances. Well now theres something to start with. I dont say its good or that its proper/right about anything. But at least theres start. And yes i take leading of companies pretty seriously. Inserting some of its basics over bush wasnt that hard.

3. Get out more! How long did you take writing that?
I must honestly say im not exactly sure. I think i talked at phone around 6pm and i was finished around 9pm... so how long that makes? 3 hours? Hmm... but i started before that phone call... so i would say around 4 hours +-1.


As last i can say that so far 1 guy has camed to me and thanked me of posting this and said its interesting. I myself think more i know more stupid i am. But as long as somone has seen this thread to be some kind of eyes opener and help it has its place among bushtarion community. My thanks to that person of those kind words.
If you people have something to ask (please about topic) or to debate for you are more than welcome to post your ideas and views here. I will respond when i have time.
 

vlad

Harvester
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
151
Location
UK
Re: Approaching leadership

To be fair guys, this can be useful. Alot of people out there are to scared to lead, and something like this, might give them the edge. If BW wrote this, and all we see are 4 new alliances, then thats achieved something.
Don't slate it Martin, if you haven't read it. Very bad form, even for you.
Think your cool and all, but a bit below tbh.
 

Garrett

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,872
Re: Approaching leadership

whatever vlad. martin has a point. a 'manual' on leadership can close doors and teach someone to think a certain way without experiencing it for themselves and possibly figure out how to do it better...

or the popular catch phrase 'make it their own'.

not saying what BW has put down can't help, but you automatically dismissing Martin's comment is a bit pig-headed. I take it you've never led before?
 

BlackWolf

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,217
Location
Lappeenranta, Finland (Wolf territory)
Re: Approaching leadership

Garrett your statement clearly shows exactly how much you thought before you opened your mouth. Start to think again and you will find truth is exact opposite of what you said!
Also i didnt tell anyone how they should do things. This is not guide how to lead. My post is about leading overall from multiple views its not guide.
Either you have not even bothered to read or then you have some serious problems with understanding.
 

Twigley

Hydroponics Developer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
2,694
Location
UK
Re: Approaching leadership

I CANNOT beleive that you guys are slating BW.
He has put some time into giving some good advice and gets flames :O
 

Illumination

Head Gardener
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
442
Re: Approaching leadership

Agreed, this is a forum. If BW has something he wants to post, he has a right to do so. No one has to agree with it, but its his advice that he is offering. I disagree with his ideals on leadership, and feel he is missing one style, the natural leader. The one that people follow for only one reason...because they want to. Im not sure its learned, tweaked through experience perhaps, but some just have it. When you have a leader like that, you're just happy to be a part of the team- its solid. You rise together, you fall together, but no matter the outcome, you are always happy to be a part of the team.
 

BlackWolf

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,217
Location
Lappeenranta, Finland (Wolf territory)
Re: Approaching leadership

Illu read again Hitler part...
Charismatic leader
First and most known one is charismatic leader. There are many examples of such leading (way more than others) and most of those are connected to negative things. In this matter you should not! Such examples like Napoleon and Hitler are basic examples of GOOD charismatic leader. They were persons who were able to get their team to follow them to hell and back by being good talkers. At the same time such examples are shown of bad leading because these persons were not able to overcome their own weaknesses, such as power hunger and though of being invincible. Yet they are examples of how powerful can good charismatic leader be. Charismatic leaders are basic example in internet gaming too. Usually people who ends up leading are ones who have the guts to take responsibility and who have some social skills yet more often are driven by hunger for victory and are ready to do anything its demanded to get there. This leader type even successful one is really vulnerable to leaders’ personal problems such as arrogance.

There are multiple ways to divide people to cathegories. Even all these examples i made are only small fracture, yet those are somehow to be kept as few main ones. Each could be then divided to smaller and smaller groups. And no person is usually only from one group but combination of two or more. Yet these examples as raw as those are, are to show that theres more than just one type of leaders and that different kind of leaders are strong and weak on different areas.

What you call Natural Leader is often referred as Charismatic leader in books about leadership. Its because the only way to see why these people can do what they do is due their charisma. Ability to speak/act/do to get people to follow them. That is skill you cant really learn its more you just born with it skill. Yet these same leaders tends to have problems on other areas due their view of leading being something you just have in you not something you can learn. Nowdays when such persons cant become leaders such easily as earlier this kind of persons are actually really rare.
 

Illumination

Head Gardener
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
442
Re: Approaching leadership

I can see how you feel that addresses what I was talking about based on the wording I provided, but its entirely different than what I was referring to. Charismatic, yes, I suppose so, but there is no "getting" people to follow you...they just kind of flock naturally, completely by choice. Im not going to argue this one, not at all. Perhaps we are just miscommunicating, perhaps not.
 

harriergirl

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,200
Location
Hillsville VA, USA
Re: Approaching leadership

Yes, this info can be helpful and I can appreciate BW's effort and time in putting it up. But the info is by no means all inclusive, and tbh the whole post comes off as a bit pompous... even though I don't think that was BW's intent. But having always been somewhat of a "natural leader" irl, I've had some training and a good deal more practical experience but I think an interviewing manager said it best and I'll quote

" You are a leader, because for some reason people want to follow you" I don't think it needs to be much more complicated than that... 8)
 

BlackWolf

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,217
Location
Lappeenranta, Finland (Wolf territory)
Re: Approaching leadership

Illumination as i said in my post natural leaders are referred as charismatic leaders in literacy about leading. Simple as that. There is no such thing as just locking up to someone. Leading is very close to psychology and human behaviourism. Both are major parts in understanding leadership and its functions. What you present by idea of natural leaders such as you harriergirl is over 200 years old stuff.
at 1890 began studying of leading. It began first at factories of that time, Its called byrocratic leading. people referred to leading as functions of what leader does. As leader is certain kind of machine which operates on certain way in certain situations.
It all based on experience, testing and common sense. It all aimed to improving and writing down best ways to improve performance and technical achievements.
During 1950- 1970 New school started to speak of late modern leadership. They started to gather information and make scientific recearches about leading. Its aim was to find best possible systems and situational theories for how to lead.
During 1970 to 1990 Late modern scholarship based their view to actually watching leaders at work. This is first time when such leader types like social leaders were discovered. They learned that lots of leades spent most of their time doing all kinds of small conversations and drawing their own facts which even might been in conflict with scientific facts.
1990 -> Is after modern leading time. Where leading and its research is based on stories, on mouth to mouth experience, on studying of leading and finding best ways to lead by communicating with others about leading. After 1990 leading has flourished and there are multiple ways to lead and multiple ways to organize.

Im referring in my posts material of multiple professors of different universities. I hope you have something to back up your basic ideas. I think these professors are right about leading and what kind of leader classes there are, rather than some people who have next to no knownledge about this matter or have heard from 1 person this or that.

To put it simple there are no such thing as natural leaders. Leading is skill amongst others. Just like someone is better writer someone is better leader. But there is no such thing as born writer or born leader. In moder society where situations changes all the time with skills of some old school superior leader for example Napoleon might have no changes against leaders who have learned skill of leading from multiple sourses and who are able to adapt their leading style and organization to every all the time changing situation.

No leader can just without anything gather alliance or members. They do same amount of work for their members as everyone else. Propably they do even more work. There is no just thing as free rides. They just know how to put their words, actions and idealism in correct way for people to get stuck to them. Thats why they are referred as charismatic leaders.
Good example is Hitler. He was able to speak in such ways and do such things he got whole nation behind him. Those people didnt just come. No one will just come no matter what kind of person you are. You still must talk to people, attract them and communicate with masses to attract people to join your cause.

As you seem to be so fond to this idea of natural leaders can you name me one. Cause i cant name any leder that has just like magnet drawd people to him without any work and those people have never abandoned him no matter what etc BS what you throw around.
Ball is now at your hands... im waiting.

PS. You think good football players become pros without practise? You really think no one can be good football player? You really think that you cant be good bushtarion player without being born to be one? I think your view to this world is really narrow if you really think people cant learn skills. Leading is just skill. ANYONE! can do it. And those who invests their time to learn it just like any other skill can easily become much better leaders than those "natural leaders of yours".
 

atsanjose

Landscape Designer
Super Moderator
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
Messages
1,659
Location
Netherlands, Brabant
Re: Approaching leadership

you can learn how to lead, but you cant learn to be a leader...
you cant learn charm, or talking smooth.

the followers dont judge you on making the right decisions (like they even know what is right)
but assume that the decisions the leader makes are right.

and harriergirl, if you are the natural leader at home, then garret must be the slave :lol:
 

BlackWolf

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,217
Location
Lappeenranta, Finland (Wolf territory)
Re: Approaching leadership

I think your wrong about charm and smooth talking... Isnt that what they teach people at teather schools? To act, to smooth talk, to be charming. ;)

But basicly your right. You just forgot to add that:
You can be a leader but never learn to lead.

Nothing can be learned from books. You must put it to action too, test it, find your own way. But thats where learning from others comes in.
I learned poker by trying out first... didnt work. Then i read few books about it and saw how far to forest i went just by trial and error. Why should people make such mistakes if someone has made those already? Isnt it smarter to combine learnings and reality than just try everything on your own?
My worst mistake as leader ever was that i learned to lead by trial and error. I learned only one way and after thousands of repeats it got so stuck to me i still fight to get rid of all bad sides... i still might be as bad leader as i was years back if i had not thought maby theres something to learn from.

The thing that we can see from some replies here is that people believes leading cant be learned. That makes them weak. Strong leaders finds others weaknesses and uses those against them. People who can only see what they want to see and are not able to step out of the picture to see the picture have big weakness in that.
Everything can be learned. Leading and being leader can be learned anyone can become good leader. But if you clime rear end ahead to a tree then dont come tell me that your head hurts.

There are lots of companies in the world. There are hundred thousands leaders in those, some are higher ranked some less. You people really think all those are "born to lead" people? Hell no. Those are people who have studied leading. They might not be excellent or talented leaders, but what they lack in talent they have overcome long time ago by learning. And then there is that other half who are people who think that leading is something you born with. Those are the bosses you hear stories about...
I can see clear connection with age of bushtarion members and their obvious experience of leaders, leading and bosses and with their attitude.

If same as people think about leading would apply to reading then none of you people would know how to read... as its for talented only. That was situation on middle age... i wonder why.
Leading is skill. If you read my post you will realize that there are multiple ways to lead. Some are inherited as charismatic leading. Some like social leading is completely learned. Other like being model leading is completely person dependable (in this case we can talk about psychology and back grounds etc.).

Some charismatic leader might never learn to be social leader, yet someone who started by being social leader can learn charisma and get authority by right actions. Usually females are from nature social leaders. Its what usually works best in internet gaming. Leading males tends to be charismatic leaders. By studying your own actions, by thinking why you did what you did and by reading of such models, situational theories etc you can improve your skill from territory you didnt know while you same time strengthen the area your already strong at. Thats why we study. We want to become better at something. You are not given some stats when you born whit what you must live rest of your life. You are given guidelines. Rest is up to you.
 

Garrett

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,872
Re: Approaching leadership

It's obvious that people here have trouble with broad issues/concepts and that no one can read a post only their preconceived notions of people.

Guidelines are still something to follow, and the guidelines are from your point of view only.

I can point out several things that you didn't include that I find valuable.

I was not flaming BW at all. I was telling vlad not to dismiss Martin's comment out of hand.

I'm not going to point out several things missing because as I said (even tho no one read it I guess *prod bw*) that what BW put can be helpful.

But it can also be equally as damaging that is my point.
 

harriergirl

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,200
Location
Hillsville VA, USA
Re: Approaching leadership

I *never* said that people can't be taught to lead. On the contrary I have become a better leader because of classes, books and mentors that saw the potential in me. HOWEVER, there are some people who are born more naturally inclined to leadership than others. There are some people who will never be effective leaders no matter how many classes they take.
I can play the piano .. but I have no natural talent for it. Even after 12 years of lessons I hit all the right notes, but it's never fluid because it doesn't come naturally to me. However, after just 6 months at my last job, veterans were coming to me for answers and guidance simply because I was capable and willing, not because I ever set out to be a leader to them. Perhaps our definition of "natural leader" is a conglomeration of what you have set forth as example from your studies.
Whether the information is your opinion or years of scientific data spewed back like vomit... the fact remains that very little of it is relevant to Bushtarion.

now.. let's step off the soapbox together and noone will get hurt =P
 

Melnibone

Head Gardener
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
380
Re: Approaching leadership

Having to agree with Illumination on the concept of the natural leader, you seem to twin this with the concept of the charismatic leader and i think i know why, your basic problem and flaw is that you are thinking in the realms of business and politics and not an online game.

An example of a natural leader in this game in my opinion is Angela, and im apologising in advance to her as she is genuinely the best example i can think of for the reasons im about to explain so sowwwy Angela :)

Now from my dealings with her and i have been in her alliance many times, she was the paradox of the player who loved and hated leading, very rarely if ever did she start the alliance or make herself leader, she never spoke eloquently to convince others or anything of that nature she had few of the qualities of what you would class as the charismatic leader what Angela did have was the inner personal strength of the natural leader to assess a situation and make sacrifices for others, make the important calls and more importantly make them right that makes her a good example of what i would call a natural leader in bushtarion

Basicly to summarise a natural leader to me is someone whos only skill is to make people want to follow them, not through design or invention but by the nature of their actions without thought of gain.

Are these people the best leaders? in business and the military definately not but in a game where i plan to have fun you bet your ass they are, i want to play alongside someone who because of their dedication to the game and the community have earned my respect.

Melni xx
 

BlackWolf

Landscape Designer
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
1,217
Location
Lappeenranta, Finland (Wolf territory)
Re: Approaching leadership

Melnibone your answer is given straight without reading and thinking what i have said.
Yes people can born with skill to lead. But if we start to think about that way they are leading we soon find out they are so called charismatic leaders.
Its in them. Word charismaic leader means exactly that. They lead by their charisma. I dont mean this as offence to anyone, but i also see someone can be born to be as natural social leader or natural example leader.
Saying that all "born with it" or "talented" leaders are only of one class is pretty narrow minded to me. No i dont see difference between online game and companies. Princibles are same, on online games certain structures are more around than in companies where other structures are dominant.

Its one thing to read what i have written and its other to understand it. I have never said i couldnt be wrong or that i would be right. Im giving certain perspective to whole matter and when being questioned without being given anything else but "natural" in return i feel really abused.
 
Top