Heavy Weapons

[Alcibiades]

Why eta 6? Is there a reason, and if so, could someone please let know what it is, maybe even post in the thread so all the world can see.

I'm just not sure why it has such a huge eta... is it incomparably amazing early game, or what's the situation here...

Thanks to Rama and Nameless for the first two answers.... ;)

[18:36:23] <Alcibiades> does anyone know why Heavy Weapons are eta 6?
[18:36:39] <Nameless> because Azzer hates them
[18:36:49] <Rama|tv> just to annoy people Alcibiades
[18:36:58] <Alcibiades> what a sonofa***** he is :P

[Welshie]

Because those weapons are heavy. (someone had to say it).

I think it goes back to when they were awesome (R6). They were awesome, and therefore slow. I think grenadiers used to be eta 6 as well.

[Terrakan]

Why eta 6? Is there a reason, and if so, could someone please let know what it is, maybe even post in the thread so all the world can see.

I'm just not sure why it has such a huge eta... is it incomparably amazing early game, or what's the situation here...

Thanks to Rama and Nameless for the first two answers.... ;)

[18:36:23] <Alcibiades> does anyone know why Heavy Weapons are eta 6?
[18:36:39] <Nameless> because Azzer hates them
[18:36:49] <Rama|tv> just to annoy people Alcibiades
[18:36:58] <Alcibiades> what a sonofa***** he is :P

[ 22:36 ] < Alcibiades > does anyone know why Heavy Weapons are eta 6?
[ 22:37 ] < Nameless > because Azzer hates them
[ 22:37 ] < Rama|tv > just to annoy people Alcibiades
[ 22:37 ] < Alcibiades > what a sonofa***** he is :P
[ 22:39 ] < Terrakan > Alcibiades coz they are "Heavy" weapons
[ 22:39 ] < Terrakan > might be a clue
[ 22:40 ] < Alcibiades > bullshit
[ 22:40 ] < Alcibiades > like a ****ing robotic trex doesn't take a long goddamn time to move
[ 22:41 ] < Alcibiades > and he just motors along at a proper eta 5

I believe i stated the obvious but Alci dont listen to me

[kyx]

Because they are a defensive unit, like cyborg soldiers.

[dafe]

i agree with alci the eta 6 doesnt make sense...even trexes got an eta reduction to 5 in some earlier round...i would say HW should have the same

[Chewie]

i agree with alci the eta 6 doesnt make sense...even trexes got an eta reduction to 5 in some earlier round...i would say HW should have the same

no that arguement is smeg. don't even start that arguement. its like saying an ant should move faster than a human because its lighter. A Cybornetic-Trex doesn't have additional weight to carry. its like a car the more weight it has in the slower it gets. Heavy weapons have big ass guns reducing there speed.

Anyway, as somebody posted above about them being a defensive unit, thats the best explaination imo. they aren't well suited to attacking.

[Alcibiades]

I wouldn't necessarily say that they deserve and eta reduction simply because of comparison with rexes.

I just think that it make very little sense for it to be an eta 6 unit. Even eta 5 (to match officers for example) would be an immense improvement because then at least it would have some use in an ally and afaik, striker isn't designed to be a solo route?

It just seems to be a hangover from earlier days when eta 6 might have been necessary and could probably do with being 'looked at' again to see if this is necessary.

[Ahead]

It would be too good as health LET flak if it was eta 5? So making it eta 6 means you just add a tick on to the eta of the mob but you get a lot better flakkage from HWs than from grens so maybe thats it? Also they're not bad killers, so if they were made eta 5 I'm sure their price would have to be increased a bit.

Makes some kind of incentive to get marines as well cos if you cba to wait then marines are better LET flak...? Which = more money for Azzer which keeps the game alive a bit more...

[Alcibiades]

Makes some kind of incentive to get marines as well cos if you cba to wait then marines are better LET flak...? Which = more money for Azzer which keeps the game alive a bit more...

I really don't mean to say the HWs shouldn't be eta 6, i just didn't understand at the time (or even still now, really) why they are increased eta. They don't seem that fantastic, and with a slight increase in cost (both in dev time and perhaps in real unit cost) then they could be made eta 5 to fit in with the rest of the game. The only other units that get an increased eta are either Punits (117s, which are a good deal more powerful than HWs and their cost reflects it obviously) or generics like tractors (with increased eta due to immense flakkage power). Afaik there are no other units (other than combines) that have an increased eta.

It does make an incentive to get marines, and Azzer is going to need every penny he can get after nerfing puppets so badly ;)

Edit: Perhaps HWs crappiness (and the general crappiness of the early Striker route units) is supposed to be countered by the immense power of the route late game? That's possible and even reasonable (although i still can't really countenance the eta 6, it just seems so *unreasonable*). The eta 6 seems to make the unit superfluous. Early game i'd rather have officers for use in defence, and i'd really rather not ever have to use large amounts of officers, certainly not to counter PBs/Ninjas etc. It just seems interesting to have a unit with such a drawback and not a comparable identifiable strength.

[f0xx]

You are missing a critical point alci. The grenadier + HW combo is the only armor + health killing combo so early in the game excet the assassin + ninjas combo and if you compare HWs to ninjas (which is their equivalent) you might get the idea why Azzer put this eta increase for HWs.

Later in the game this also pushesh people to buy the marines, so you have 2 good reasons for their current eta already :P

[BlackWolf]

There is no such combo etc. reason behind of it.
HWs are eta 6 cause its remainant of old age before all these new BS routes and new BS units.
At time when there were only 4 routes HWs would been bit too good if lower ETA specially cause later units of that route are so strong.
Nowdays theres no reason for them to be eta 6 but Azzer is too biased to change it.

[Jorizz]

Nowdays theres no reason for them to be eta 6 but Azzer is too biased to change it.

PLEASE BlackWolf...there's not some evil complot, conspiracy theory or evil forces behind every single thing in this game..


For the HW's, I think the Striker branch is currently the strongest in the game and does not need any more boosts/nerfs in a positive sense.

[f0xx]

There is no such combo etc. reason behind of it.
HWs are eta 6 cause its remainant of old age before all these new BS routes and new BS units.
At time when there were only 4 routes HWs would been bit too good if lower ETA specially cause later units of that route are so strong.
Nowdays theres no reason for them to be eta 6 but Azzer is too biased to change it.

This same reason can be given for the current rounds as well. New routes don't change a thing.

The striker route is one of the best (if not the best route) in late stages, if HWs are to be made eta 5 they will be one of the best routes in the early stages as well, which will disbalance the route itself and the whole game.

Try to avoind arguing just for the sake of it, BW, please. I am not some newcommer who posts without putting much thoughts behind his words. I can suggest you do the same from time to time, it will have only positive effects on your persona I believe.

[BlackWolf]

Rofl f0xx and Jorizz you clearly have not spend single moment playing with HWs, looking at routes and their dev costs and times.
HWs are next to useless when they come out. They come out so late and costs so much their cost effective use is impossible, their firepower is not even nearly enough to compensate their high cost and lousy power and high ETA. In every other tech at that point they have something usefull i their hands where with HWs your given nothing.

I really hope you guys would play bit more that route and think bit more before you speak cause you both clearly dont know of what your talking about.
To put it simple HWs sux even if their ETA would be 4.
Their ETA is remainant from time when they had place in this game. Now even if they had ETA 3 their usage would only consist of few days of mediocre firepower after which they would be beated again by masses of better units.

[CFalcon]

HWs are next to useless when they come out.

lol

In a ftw alliance you are kinda forced to ignore HWs in the scramble to get to strikers. But if you aren't playing ftw and take a day or two out of teching to buy some of these and actually experiment with them, damn are they powerful. You can give petrols, ninjas, or paras/emps a thorough slapping.

The only reason they are ignored by people going ftw at the moment is cos they are eta 6 and therefore zero use defensively. They gotta stay eta 6 or they'd be too damn good.

[Garrett]

HW's are pure sex for solo play

[f0xx]

HWs are next to useless when they come out. They come out so late and costs so much their cost effective use is impossible, their firepower is not even nearly enough to compensate their high cost and lousy power and high ETA. In every other tech at that point they have something usefull i their hands where with HWs your given nothing.

I really hope you guys would play bit more that route and think bit more before you speak cause you both clearly dont know of what your talking about.
To put it simple HWs sux even if their ETA would be 4.
Their ETA is remainant from time when they had place in this game. Now even if they had ETA 3 their usage would only consist of few days of mediocre firepower after which they would be beated again by masses of better units.

You are being narrow minded here and not looking at the whole picture but at a single unit.

[BlackWolf]

No im actually one being open minded and counting in all variables like development costs and unit cost compared to power and ETA.
HWs are really slow, both in init and in ETA, costs like hell and doesnt give in exchange power it would require to be usefull. Also its development is one of slowest ones and costs a lot compared to other routes.
You cant and shouldnt compare how HW can kill certain guy that is 30% of your size. You are to compare HWs to other routes that are as far teched and as high as you are. And in that comparison HW really really suxs.
So to put it simple HW is one of weakest routes out there at the time HW comes out.

[Obstacle]

Military - HW HP/AR/HD/AD Military - ST HP/AR/HD/AD Military - Para HP/AR/HD/AD Military - EMP HP/AR/HD/AD
350,000,000 24 350,000,000 24 350,000,000 24 350,000,000 24
1,900,000,000 48 1,900,000,000 48 1,900,000,000 48 1,900,000,000 48
60,000,000,000 90 4/1/3/1 45,000,000,000 126 2/2/2/2 6,000,000,000 64 2/1/2/1 5,500,000,000 64 2/1/1/2
62,250,000,000 162 47,250,000,000 198 8,250,000,000 136 7,750,000,000 136
Protestor - Loud
400,000,000 24
650,000,000 42
1,000,000,000 66 1/2/2/1
2,050,000,000 132
Special Ops - Spike Special Ops - Chem Special Ops - Stealth T Special Ops - Pol Bribe
1,000,000,000 24 1,000,000,000 24 1,000,000,000 24 1,000,000,000 24
7,500,000,000 60 5,000,000,000 54 10,000,000,000 78 1,500,000,000 25
65,000,000,000 102 2/1/2/1 65,000,000,000 102 2/1/2/1 65,000,000,000 102 2/1/2/1 65,000,000,000 102 2/1/2/1
73,500,000,000 186 71,000,000,000 180 76,000,000,000 204 67,500,000,000 151
Thug - Pet Thug - Nutter Thug - Thief
350,000,000 24 1,000,000,000 24 1,000,000,000 24
550,000,000 42 550,000,000 42 550,000,000 42
18,000,000,000 100 1/1/2/3 10,000,000,000 65 1/1/1/1 9,000,000,000 78 1/1/-/-
18,900,000,000 166 11,550,000,000 131 10,550,000,000 144
Robotics - Psycho Robotics - Shield Robotics - Stun
1,500,000,000 24 1,500,000,000 24 1,500,000,000 24
9,000,000,000 60 7,500,000,000 48 10,000,000,000 55
95,000,000,000 140 1/5/2/1 40,000,000,000 60 1/6/1/1 43,000,000,000 40 2/4/3/4
105,500,000,000 224 49,000,000,000 132 54,500,000,000 119
Fantasy - Zombie Fantasy - Witch
550,000,000 24 550,000,000 24
2,000,000,000 52 1,850,000,000 45
15,000,000,000 40 3/1/2/1 15,000,000,000 55 4/1/3/1
17,550,000,000 116 17,400,000,000 124

I'm going to have to say they are pretty balanced. The ETA 6 thing is horrible I will admit, but they do pack a pretty decent punch. And when grouped with the Grenadier you have quite a combo. Not only do they attack all 3 ticks, but hit 70% LET and 30% ALL and are a very nice sweeper for Grenadiers. This route is very powerful and can counter nearly every route with proper ratios.

The above table is the first three development cost's followed by the time to develop. I think heavy weapons could go to an ETA 5, but oh well, they aren't horrible at ETA 6.

Edit: Sorry for the messy table, looks much better in excel. ;)

[BlackWolf]

You really need to rework your tables... a lot.
Count in all routes out there and unit costs, their damage and specially initiative.
When grenadiers enters the game theres already much much better and faster combos around.

[f0xx]

When grenadiers enters the game theres already much much better and faster combos around.


Show me one combo, father, which is better than the Gren/HW combo at that stage. I already mentioned that the only combo that is close to it (at that stage) is the assassin/ninjas combo and it is not as powerful and surviveable.

[BlackWolf]

As im not going to even answer when you mentioned one example of such combos all ready that can very very well beat that combo of HW & grens.

[Twigley]

Pb + Jeep.
Pb + Hooligans.
PB + HT flak.

I named you 3 combinations better and more cost effective with cheaper development, faster eta and come out before.

I also want to state something.
Any player in top alliance just use HW and Grens as a means to get striker and apache asap...
Any player in top ally is unlikely to buy a single one of these units at all... Maybe even all round with marines...
Any player in the really low allies will not tech HW + grens untill SA are nearly out anyway ... and they will get massed and flakked easy anyway and are very unlikely to attack alot.

And i dont think this would change at all if the eta got reduced.
For one i dont see problem of eta 6.
Who attacks on regular basis with HW when you have striker, assasins, marines?
Nobody ...

Im not sure if this is because they are eta 6 but imo it isnt.


- I think it makes no difference if they are eta 5 or 6.

[f0xx]

Pb + Jeep.
Pb + Hooligans.
PB + HT flak.

I named you 3 combinations better and more cost effective with cheaper development, faster eta and come out before.


Eh, your genius is unmatched, thank you for enlightening me about those deadly combos, I will start massing PBs straight away :roll:



I also want to state something.
Any player in top alliance just use HW and Grens as a means to get striker and apache asap...
Any player in top ally is unlikely to buy a single one of these units at all... Maybe even all round with marines...

Not going to argue with you Twoogley, but a top person massing HWs + Grens has happened before and the result was quite ugly, even with the HWs being ETA 6.

There can be various reasons for someone to mass them and if he is a good tech rusher, I can assure you he WILL be unstoppable.

Just because most people prefer to ignore them and rush to finish their route doesn't mean they don't have their uses.

Now on topic, whether HWs should be ETA 5 or ETA 6, I do not know and I do not care to be honest. If a person wants to use HWs they will do it even with the slight ETA penalty. The thing is, that they have been at this ETA for quite a long time now and if its working I don't see why should we need to change it...

[Alcibiades]

What both you fine gentlemen (Twigley and F0xx) apparently don't see is that they are not used in large part because they are made useless (by they i mean Grens and HWs ofc). if you made HWs eta 5, then they would be used... by players in the less than top allies. Personally, if HWs were eta 5 i'd use them as better officers, and wouldn't be so worried about absolutely *having* to dev strikers/'paches/(marines).

Grens and HWs as an eta 5 sendable defensive unit would be awesome. Perhaps even overpowered (yet I doubt it...).

Neither of you guys noticed that I meant eta 6 is a hamper in defence, not attack. Attack i *really* couldn't care less about a penalty, if i'm sending LETs, i'm usually secure about kicking ass in which case the extra 10 minutes.. meh. Totally Worth it. but in defence, that 1 eta is the difference between usefulness and uselessness. Especially when you only have eta 3 (as is usual for all but the top allies) at roundstart.

These units are, as you say Twigley, useless to all except as a route to Striker/Apaches... but I think that derives alot from the inability of HWs to be used for anything, in attack at this Age you're better off just flakking (OMGWTFBBQ tractors are *SO* OMG overpowered!one1!!!111!oneoneone1!) when you have HWs and by the time you need proper LETs you do have strikers and apaches shortly thereafter. Perhaps instead of writing off these units are 'useless for rounds so let's just leave it that way' maybe we could afford to bring a new unit into play. I certainly don't really see it as a problem for the game to have HWs involved. Seems to me like there'd just be more killing, and more fun. Maybe it would induce more striker players, since your round wouldn't be entirely dependent on strikers/apaches. HWs could be a factor early on to help counter the overwhelming strength of the PB and Ninja. I guess i'm just more interested in an expanded and fight filled game. (The previous sentence was a joke.)

Ta for now! Thanks for at least keeping some interest in a thread i posted \o/

[BlackWolf]

Im glad to see that some people can still think and not post what ever comes to their mind.
Ohh well im not so sure i would like to pay 50k from units that have mediocre health, no armor, mediocre health damage and no armor damage and their init is among one of the worst of all.
On top of this their dev costs like hell (compared to what you get) and their ETA is ridiculous.

Now not naming that unit at all and then looking what i just wrote i dont think i would want such unit... taking that how much much better units can be bought with under 40k and those units delivers lot more punch, have lot more strength and are much much faster in both init and ETA.

As i have said before, this game has ridiculous amount of routes which are not balanced. Whole game is running around very few actual units and rest of the routes are just BS smeg. Some routes have been put to aside almost completely and are not used almost at all. Yet people demands more and more units and routes.
This is cause gameplay has turned much more to be about units and routes and finding as abusable route as possible, instead of gaming being about players, their communication and cooperation.
HW is only one example of what this game has turned to be. I could mention much more examples like whole extremists route, guru TL, whole unit TL, robot / cyb soldiers, RPG, etc. (not going to even mention whole fanatasy route which doesnt have place in whole game and never has). All those routes have either not been usefull at all or their capabilities have been tweaked and more units out there are to kill them than they can kill. It is very sad to see how balance and routes have been destroyed bit by bit and still to see how some people think those are somehow usefull.

Ohh well not my game and not my problem.

[Pete]

There is no such combo etc. reason behind of it.
HWs are eta 6 cause its remainant of old age before all these new BS routes and new BS units.
At time when there were only 4 routes HWs would been bit too good if lower ETA specially cause later units of that route are so strong.
Nowdays theres no reason for them to be eta 6 but Azzer is too biased to change it.

straying away but werent there 5 routes? pol, thug, mil, robo, specops?

[Podunk]

When HW come out there is no armor in the game yet other than autos. So the need for this "Gren + HW" Combo is absolutely non-existent. Especially since Grens do much much more damage than HW ever do and have a much better init. I've always found Gren + Officers to be much more useful.

Now when people say HW are strong for when they come out, you are very wrong. Their init is 670 cost 50k. The only thing that doesn't fire before them are apprentices and offciers/privs. Ninjas are already out gargs are probably out at this stage and HW get absolutely mullered by them.

I've played the striker route far more than any other route that I have played since my 2 1/2 years here. To say HW are useful at that point in the game for any situation is a very flawed observation. Its always a race to Grens/strikers with the striker route.

[Garrett]

I just want to pop in real quick and say how laughable ninjas against hw are. hw's have decent survivability vs ninja and really return the damage back.

Most importantly, they help keep grens alive.

[Podunk]

I just want to pop in real quick and say how laughable ninjas against hw are. hw's have decent survivability vs ninja and really return the damage back.

Most importantly, they help keep grens alive.

Though the ninjas can kill them still. Just like any other health killer early on if theres enough of them. Grens rarely survive even if well flakked. Only way to keep those suckers alive is to priv flak. But its well worth it as Gren do superb damage.

Also, ninjas are actually useful at that stage of the game... as they can kill the military routes as well as PB. Not to mention they're stealth and cost 35k! Not bad that they're eta 4 as well.

[BlackWolf]

Ninjas do much better against HWs and flak on cost to cost ratio than what HWs do to them.
You can get 3 ninjas at price of 2 HWs. Ninjas are fast, stealth, and do ok damage where HWs are ETA 6. Please tell me on exactly what HWs beats ninjas?

[Iamsmart]

HP AR HD AD

but thats about it :P

[BlackWolf]

No thats same as saying how F1 cars were faster at 1980s when those had V12s and unlimited HPs.

[Alcibiades]

Okay, so now i've teched up to Apaches (i'm slow get used to it ;)) and I really can confirm the utter uselessness of HWs.

late round they are useless. Period. That i think few people would argue with, the problem seems to stem from the fact that people think early on they 'pwn'.

Lies. All of it Lies. Their damage is decent but that eta 6 is a fatal blow to their use. I don't see how anyone can *possibly* argue that.

Defence: utterly useless early round and later on you have much better units so....
Attack: eta 6 (lame enough but worth it if the unit kicks ass which it simply doesn't). not to mention early round you're better off spending your money on flak and devs to get better units.

All in all, really there is no necessity for the eta 6 anymore, even eta 5 i doubt they'd be wildly overpowered but maybe we should give it a try and see?

I feel like people trying to convince me that HWs are great are really just totally 'full of it' and can't have played Striker route recently. Sorry!

[Garrett]

well hw's are an early tech, they definitely aren't the crown jewel. hw's are awesome, but only in combintation of other units of the route. stop the maddness about hw's 1:1 vs other late tech units.

[vlad]

Grens are are amazing unit to have early on. If you are in a good alliance, and going to fight a PA war .. with Ninjas? You might be able to get the Grens out shortly after, pack them with some HWs, to soak some damage and sweep, they are a good timed counter to PAs. (Pre EMP and all that bolocks).

Also, depends on the state of the game. If you get alot of Inc, or you go to war, and need some good firepower early game, HWs play a part, a good part. Their ETA i think is questionable, but their abilities for their timing is not.

[rooney]

how would anyone get grens before emps are out though? unless ofc no1 FTW is going emp.

edit: just realised u mean they were a great counter to PA before emp was introduced.
ignore this :P

[Alcibiades]

Grens are are amazing unit to have early on. If you are in a good alliance, and going to fight a PA war .. with Ninjas? You might be able to get the Grens out shortly after, pack them with some HWs, to soak some damage and sweep, they are a good timed counter to PAs. (Pre EMP and all that bolocks).

Also, depends on the state of the game. If you get alot of Inc, or you go to war, and need some good firepower early game, HWs play a part, a good part. Their ETA i think is questionable, but their abilities for their timing is not.


If you're going to be last ticking ninjas/PAs (which is inevitable with eta 6 HWs) then... wtf. You may as well send officers because you're better off with them than HWs. As far as it goes for good firepower and their abilities and timing. Umm, sorry vlad, you are wildly wrong and everything is questionable. Eta 6 makes them (for the umpteenth time) absolutely ****ing impossible to use effectively in defence unless you're solo in which case buying HWs is pretty much guaranteed suicide. So please tell me where they are useful as good firepower in game other than defending yourself (in which case you are better off using just about anything else....).

Garrrett: They are a *useless* early unit tech unless you are solo, or plan on solely defending yourself. As for allied use (or even solo use to be honest....) they are utter and complete garbage. Really, the only thing missing is eta 5. That would make them at least usable.... At the moment, i'd rather stab myself in the chest with a ballpoint pen than use HWs. They serve next to no purpose and are next to useless. I have 500k HWs atm, i'd be surprised if i bought any more ever.