Examination of the ruination of "Proper English"

[DR4545]

I have read some posts, and spoken to some people who truly believe Americans are ruining the English language, and fault Americans for bringing about this ruination. It is entirely possible some people, who I believe to be the minority, will find this post objectionable, possibly to the point of being offensive. This is not my intent, but the effect may be inevitable when an addressing a controversial topic. I do not assert that the attitudes I am opposed to are those of the majority of British people, in fact I believe the opposite to be true.

This post is not intended to vilify people who believe Americans are "*******izing" the English language. My intent is not to create or encourage conflict between cultures, but rather to hopefully bring about some willingness to be more accepting than some people have been in the past. And, if I'm completely honest, I have been feeling a desire to brush off the incendiary comments that have been made about the society I am a part of.

On the topic of whether the evolution of the English language in America is ruination, John Algeo writes:

The assumption is that anything new is American and thus objectionable on moral grounds.
Change in language is, however, inevitable, just as it is in all other aspects of reality. Particular changes will be, in the eyes of one observer or another, improvements or degenerations. But judgments of what is beautiful or ugly, valuable or useless, barbarous or elegant, corrupting or improving are highly personal and idiosyncratic ones.There are no objective criteria for judging worth in language, no linguistic Tables of the Law, no archetypical authority called 'The Dictionary', though there are wannabe authoritarians aplenty.

(Of course by Dictionary he refers not to a book, but some thing or entity that can dictate what is proper or improper.)

We don't have to like particular changes, or even the fact of change itself. But a language or anything else that does not change is dead.
The eighteenth-century hope that a language could be 'fixed' -- that is, improved, or changed in a way some self-appointed linguistic judge would approve of until it reached a state of perfection and then preserved so that it would not thereafter degenerate or change in a way the judge disliked - was a chimera. It was an illusion based on misunderstandings about the nature of language, values and human nature.

(An example of a "dead language" would be Latin. There are no people who speak Latin as their native language, and therefore it does not change at all, existing merely in preserved manuscripts.)

During its roughly thirteen centuries of recorded history, English has diversified in many ways. Any two varieties of a language become increasingly different from each other when their speakers do not communicate with one other but more alike as those who use them talk among themselves. That is the way language works.

This illustrates that language evolution is not only human nature, but an inevitability. Any spoken language will change naturally, regardless of efforts to create or prevent such change.

On the topic of the existence of some language authority, James Milroy writes:

There is, however, a tacit assumption in present-day complaints that things were better in the Good Old Days of strong moral discipline. There was a Golden Age when children were more literate than they are now. When could it have been?

Upon an examination of the history of the English language, the literacy rate has increased throughout the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. And, in every generation, there seemed to have been an assumption that the Golden Age, a time of linguistic purity, was at some point in the past. Milroy concludes:

There was no Golden Age.

On the topic of a standard form of speech, Milroy writes:

... in so far as it can be described as a spoken variety, standard speech is essentially the speech of the upper and upper-middle classes -- a minority of the population. There is a very strong social dimension, and 'non-standard' accents and dialects are openly discriminated against and 'corrected', even though most people in Britain speak partly non-standard varieties. Generally, these varieties are said to be 'ungrammatical'. However, the acceptability or otherwise of these varieties is a purely social matter and has nothing to do with grammar.

When Milroy mentions prescriptivists, he refers to people who "prescribe" what is a proper grammar rule, or pronunciation. Many grammarians fall into this category.

... to get things wrong in this way is typical of the general incompetence of language prescriptivists. The others are widespread in spoken British English and are grammatical in non-standard varieties. Their acceptability, as we have noted, is a social matter. If they were common usage of the upper-middle classes (as "we was" used to be), they would be called 'grammatical'.

There is in British English today a discernible tendency to level out regional differences in speech, and this process will continue regardless of grammar tests in schools. The latter in fact will merely continue the process of discrimination against non-standard speakers. In an age when discrimination in terms of race, colour, religion or gender is not publicly acceptable, the last bastion of overt social discrimination will continue to be a person's use of language.

I will conclude by illustrating my counterpoint to a notion that has been thrown around.

We are English people, and the language is English. We invented it, we decide what is proper.

This statement looks acceptable on the surface. The word for the English language and English people are both spelled the same way, after all. But, on closer examination, what this statement asserts is that one culture has the authority to dictate which evolution of the language is proper because they have named a language after themselves.

Would it have been proper in previous centuries for Germanic people with other branches of the language to degrade British people for "*******izing" their languages?

Who has granted what is by all appearances an aristocratic divine right to dictate morality based on a person's natural manner of speech, which is a simple product of their locality?

Can this notion truly be justified? Is it not the product of ethnocentrism? Is the idea of moral superiority, or a moral authority on the side of one society or the other not elitist? Is degrading a society for an inevitable evolution of language from geographical separation not discriminatory?

---
All citations (in bold) from "Language Myths," by editors Laurie Bauer and Peter Trudgill. Copyright 1998 Penguin Books.

[TheNamelessWonder]

Language changes. There are different dialects of any language. Basically, it isn't a big deal at all. American English is different from English English, which is different from Australian English, etc etc. No one sort is "better" than any other, and anyone who cares enough to argue that one is really needs to find something better to do.

[tobapopalos]

This post is not intended to vilify people who believe Americans are "*******izing" the English language.

That should be "*******ising" you goddamn, illiterate, yankee cockface!

Seriously though, I think the problem most people have is not that Americans are changing the English language, but that a lot of them are trying to force those changes on us, or telling us that our way of spelling is somehow incorrect. Also, there are plenty of words which are perfectly fine as they are, but have been changed for no good reason. Like randomly changing Z's to S's. WTF is that all about? The S is a damn fine letter, and I don't want to see it phased out so some young cocky Z can replace it. SAVE THE S!

[DR4545]

Seriously though, I think the problem most people have is not that Americans are changing the English language, but that a lot of them are trying to force those changes on us, or telling us that our way of spelling is somehow incorrect.
I'm sure that does happen. I would suspect when you normally see it is out of ignorance. Most Americans will never be handed a British dictionary, so will never really see the alternative (original?) spelling. So, it would look "wrong." :D

I think there's a bit of a shock for some people when the Internet makes such a sudden contact between two variations of the language that have evolved for centuries.

And, the normal human response to "our way is the right way" is "no my way is the right way" instead of "we both have our own way of saying things and they are both fine."

[Bunion]

I got half way before I got bored of reading.

The issue I have with Americans, is that, through being the super power that they are, peddle the language they speak as English, the true form, which it isn't. I accept that you speak a branch of English, much like the Quebeqouise speak a branch of French, that SHOULD be known as American English. Granted the variation of language between English and American English isn't as broad as between the Canadians and the French, but the noticeable differences ARE there. Variations in spelling, pronunciation and most of all, vocabulary, point to American English being a perfectly acceptable, yet different, branch of English.

All I want is for Americans to see this, but it is possibly too late, as the "taint" (maybe too harsh a word) has already spread, with me seeing non native English speakers commonly using terms such as "mom", "soccer" and "color" and believing that they are speaking English, when they are actually speaking American English.

Now, I'm not a stupid person, I do know full well that I get very short with Americans with whom I chat on IRC, when the subject of language arises, but to me, it is a strange, almost fanatical belief in keeping what is spoken in England as English, and while desperately trying to stop the short hand that is "internet speak" and "text speak" from becoming the norm, things like linguistical differences between two perfectly acceptable languages become entwined in the need to keep English English.

[Hippie]

To the citizens of the United States of America:

In light of your failure to elect a competent President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately. Her Sovereign Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories (excepting Kansas, which she does not fancy).

Your new prime minister, Tony Blair, will appoint a governor for America without the need for further elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed. To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then look up "aluminium," and check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'colour', 'favour' and 'neighbour.' Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters, and the suffix "ize" will be replaced by the suffix "ise." You will learn that the suffix 'burgh' is pronounced 'burra'; you may elect to respell Pittsburgh as 'Pittsberg' if you find you simply can't cope with correct pronunciation. Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels (look up "vocabulary"). Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication.

2. There is no such thing as "US English." We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take account of the reinstated letter 'u' and the elimination of "-ize."

3. You will relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out Task #1 (see above).

4. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday. November 2nd will be a new national holiday, but to be celebrated only in England. It will be called "Come-Uppance Day."

5. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you're not adult enough to be independent. Guns should only be handled by adults. If you're not adult enough to sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist then you're not grown up enough to handle a gun.

6. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler. A permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

7. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and this is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left with immediate effect. At the same time, you will go metric immediately and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

8. The Former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling "gasoline") -roughly $6/US gallon. Get used to it.

9. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called "crisps." Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with mayonnaise but with vinegar.

10. Waiters and waitresses will be trained to be more aggressive with customers.

11. The cold tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as "beer," and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as "Lager." American brands will be referred to as "Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine," so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.

12. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters. Watching Andie MacDowell attempt English dialogue in "Four Weddings and a Funeral" was an experience akin to having one's ears removed with a cheese grater.

13. You will cease playing American "football." There is only one kind of proper football; you call it "soccer." Those of you brave enough will, in time, will be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies). Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the "World Series" for a game which is not played outside of America. Since only 2.1% of you are aware that there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable.

14. You must tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us mad.

15. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due backdated to 1776.

Thank you for your co-operation.

John Cleese

[DR4545]

All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left with immediate effect.
NOOOOOOOOOOO! I hate roundabouts!

Plus, how are the people adult enough to be gun-toters going to shoot the bad drivers if they're on the other side of a roundabout?

[Bobbin]

As far as I'm concerned, Americans can speak any language they like. However, continuing to speak English incorrectly shouldn't be allowed. Speak American all you like, but don't dare call your dirty little language English.

Kthnxbai.

[DR4545]

I got half way before I got bored of reading.It's a doozyThe issue I have with Americans, is that, through being the super power that they are, peddle the language they speak as English, the true form, which it isn't.Neither is a "true form," as anything that is not a dead language will evolve, and lack any "true form." Being a super power is not causing our variation to spread more heavily. The fact there is a much, much greater audience of American English speakers causes it to spread faster. All the tanks bombs and planes in the world will not spread language. I accept that you speak a branch of English, much like the Quebeqouise speak a branch of French, that SHOULD be known as American English. Granted the variation of language between English and American English isn't as broad as between the Canadians and the French, but the noticeable differences ARE there. Variations in spelling, pronunciation and most of all, vocabulary, point to American English being a perfectly acceptable, yet different, branch of English.

All I want is for Americans to see this, but it is possibly too late, as the "taint" (maybe too harsh a word) has already spread, with me seeing non native English speakers commonly using terms such as "mom", "soccer" and "color" and believing that they are speaking English, when they are actually speaking American English.Yes, "taint" is too harsh (no offense.) It places a value judgment on two different paths of evolution the language has taken. Most modern linguists consider both American and British English to be two variations of the same language. So, those people are speaking English, it's not the variation you like.Now, I'm not a stupid person, I do know full well that I get very short with Americans with whom I chat on IRC, when the subject of language arises, but to me, it is a strange, almost fanatical belief in keeping what is spoken in England as English, and while desperately trying to stop the short hand that is "internet speak" and "text speak" from becoming the norm, things like linguistical differences between two perfectly acceptable languages become entwined in the need to keep English English.This response isn't really unnatural. I think like you said, you have lumped "internet speak" and American English onto the same plate. They are separate issues. Another thing to be aware of is that linguists do not consider writing and language to be the same thing. Language is a system of communication. Writing is a system of rules to translate language to paper. So, how people write text messages and chat on IRC is not representative of how they speak.

[DR4545]

As far as I'm concerned, Americans can speak any language they like. However, continuing to speak English incorrectly shouldn't be allowed. Speak American all you like, but don't dare call your dirty little language English.

Kthnxbai.I would give you the benefit of the doubt in being sarcastic, but you are one of the people who has stated Americans *******ize your language, and in the context of this thread go so far as to call the variation we are born into dirty.

If people speak a variation of the language which is different from yours, how is that a threat to you? How are you being damaged to speak with such disdain?

Who granted you the moral authority to dictate that your variation is more pure? Why is the evolution of language acceptable if it occurs within your borders, but not elsewhere?

Are these elitist views less repulsive to a society that was once dominated by aristocratic ideals?

[Bobbin]

Why is it acceptable in the borders of England, and not in others?

Well, it is called ENGLISH after all. We have ownership over the language, deal with it... In my opinion the UK is the only English speaking country in the world. Americans speak American, Australians speak Australian etc. The languages may be similar enough to all be understood with relative ease by the others, but they are NOT the same language.

[DR4545]

Why is it acceptable in the borders of England, and not in others?

Well, it is called ENGLISH after all. We have ownership over the language, deal with it... It's called English because its first speakers named it after themselves. You are claiming possession of a system of communication. A language is not a plot of land or a tuna sandwich. You can buy a plot of land or a tuna sandwich. Claiming you have the rights to a language is a bit dodgy. It's not patented or copyrighted content, it's just people talking.In my opinion the UK is the only English speaking country in the world. Americans speak American, Australians speak Australian etc. The languages may be similar enough to all be understood with relative ease by the others, but they are NOT the same language.So, then all Canadians must speak ... Canadian? You seem to define whatever is spoken in any given place as that place's unique language. I'm going to go with the definition of "language" that linguists use, and it does not differ from dictionary definitions: A language is a system of communication. The boundaries of languages aren't defined by national borders or bodies of water. Where people use the same system of communication, they are using the same language.

We are both communicating, does the fact we have some different spellings, pronunciations, and some different preferences in grammar construction mean we aren't in fact speaking the same language?

[TheNamelessWonder]

It really amazes me how some of the English people here are getting their knickers in a twist over the way Americans talk and write. I find it pathetic, personally.

As far as I'm concerned, Americans can speak any language they like. However, continuing to speak English incorrectly shouldn't be allowed. Speak American all you like, but don't dare call your dirty little language English.

Perhaps the most ridiculous thing anyone has said on here yet. We threw off the shackles of the king over two centuries ago, and as such have the right as a nation to use which language we choose, and to call it what we like. We could call our dialect of English anything, we could call it Spanish, or French, or Googledegook if we wanted. It's just a name. How absurd to get so upset over a name, of all things.

[Souls]

It really amazes me how some of the English people here are getting their knickers in a twist over the way Americans talk and write. I find it pathetic, personally.

QFT, this thread disappoints :P

[Markb]

I have read some posts, and spoken to some people who truly believe Americans are ruining the English language, and fault Americans for bringing about this ruination. It is entirely possible some people, who I believe to be the minority, will find this post objectionable, possibly to the point of being offensive. This is not my intent, but the effect may be inevitable when an addressing a controversial topic. I do not assert that the attitudes I am opposed to are those of the majority of British people, in fact I believe the opposite to be true.
[snip]


I believe you have posted your essay for your English class on the wrong forum site.

Colour is spelt with the u, same with all the other ou words (armour, favourite) not any other way thought up by a lazy American. EOD

[pinpower]

lol, i love how because you are writing about "proper english" you felt you had to try and make yourself look smart by throwing in a load of unnecessarily complicated words...dont be so pretentious...

;)

[DR4545]

@pinpower:

I am using the words I think best fit what I am explaining. Many of them happen to be big ones. I assure you my goal wasn't to show off my linguistic "bling bling"

Choosing not to avoid big words shows confidence in my audience to be able to read at approximately a college level. I won't go out of my way to use small words to avoid seeming snobbish; I think that would make my points less clear.

Also, in all honesty I don't know simpler words for some things. Like "ethnocentrism." What else to call it? Cultural bigotry? Isn't that unwieldy?

I know your post wasn't mean-spirited, but I wanted to respond anyway :P

[Bunion]

John Cleese wins.

[pinpower]

It is acceptable, I was merely attempting to remark on an emanation of abstemious farcicality.

I nevertheless love thou

;)

[Garrett]

*snicker*

this thread is beyond silly.

Look the anglo saxons are your brethren as we split ifrom you and made our own country. Now in the effort to distance ourselves from our ancestors we became the melting pot and so it's not so much that 'we' are trying to change and force our english, but that we are so multicultural and diverse that other countries and their customs are influencing the way we behave.

I blame england and the whole eu for text speak and chavving up the internet. Challenge!


(really you could blame -since blame is what you are after- the african americans. they survive solely on slang to distance themselves from whites. the inherit guilt some whites feel about the past, causes them (the whites) to try and assimilate african american culture to help them 'fit in' and 'be cool'... therefore slang is now rampant and predominant. eu had the nice cell phones first, and i stand by my original charges against england!)

to sum up, i find your opening statement and arguement both flawed and demeaning. inserting personal opinion, blanketed and surrounded by what someone wrote and presenting it as fact that we are the cause of your precious language going away.

if you are in england or the EU then you are probably still using it the same way, don't get mad because it doesn't stay that way outside your boarders.

next time you want to wax intellectual, please either do it elsewhere or write something decent :)


P.S. Hippie, as an Aussie, you are on an island of convicts so therefore must be one yourself. As a convict you have neither a) the right or b) the ability to make any decisions as it is. The entire world allows you 'sovreignty' because no one else wants to manage your hell hole :D

[DR4545]

Actually, the language has evolved there as well. The issue is that some people believe they have the right to modify the language, but natural evolution elsewhere should not be allowed. Such a view gives moral ground to degrade a society for an inevitability. (Basically, the view that there must be one pure form of a language, and having two variations is unacceptable.) Let me shed more light.

Also by Algeo:

The differences between American and British are not due to Americans changing from a British standard. American is not corrupt British plus barbarisms. Rather, both American and British evolved in different ways from a common sixteenth-century ancestral standard. Present-day British is no closer to that earlier form than present-day American is. Indeed, in some ways present-day American is more conservative, that is, closer to the common original standard than is present-day British.

Both Americans and the British innovate in English pronunciation, vocabulary, and grammar. British people, however, tend to be more aware of American innovations than Americans are of British ones. The cause of that greater awareness may be a keener linguistic sensitivity on the part of the British, or a more insular anxiety and hence irritation about influences abroad, or the larger number of American speakers and their higher prominence in fields that require innovation, or perhaps the fact that present-day Americans have cultural rootlets all over the world and so are less aware of the British Isles.

[Silence]

Firstly your opinion bores me. Accept the fact that English people feel that they have control over the English language.
Then your writing style, you are condescending, it is annoying that you feel you are superior. Well guess what you're not =) Oh, also not everyone that might take a interest in this thread speaks fluent english.

Finally, which site did you copy and paste all of that from? You either are very sad and actually wrote all that out or you got it from somewhere else :D

*sigh* I cant believe I clicked on this thread expecting something interesting, instead I find some idiot throwing around long words to prove that he is infact worthy to speak english :D :D (I apologize to any other americans out there ;) )

[DR4545]

Then your writing style, you are condescending, it is annoying that you feel you are superior.

...

instead I find some idiot throwing around long words to prove that he is infact worthy to speak english :D :D (I apologize to any other americans out there ;) )
Why should I accept intolerance from people? Is it so much to ask not to be stigmatized for where I live? I'm not condescending to anyone in my posts. I've never stated Americans are superior, or that I am. I have never implied our variation of English is the "right" one. In fact, there is and never will be a "right" one. Deciding one variation is "dirty" or "inferior" or "*******ized" opens the door to intolerance and bigotry.

Ignorance is not stupidity. People just haven't examined it from a more neutral position. I'm really not trying even to throw dirt at people who accepting of elitist views. I just want to be treated like an equal. Is that condescending?

[Silence]

Why should I accept intolerance from people? Is it so much to ask not to be stigmatized for where I live?

Its spelt stigmatised ;) I didnt "stigmatize" you for where you live. I actually apologised to other Americans =). Maybe you are not as clever as you think - you missed the point of my post - I don't have a problem with Americans at all, my problem was how you spoke towards other people, telling us how superior you are =)
I do not see the problem with "American spelling". Language is a way of communicating, and as long as I understand, I dont care how it is spelt =P


I'm not condescending to anyone in my posts. I've never stated Americans are superior, or that I am. I have never implied our variation of English is the "right" one. In fact, there is and never will be a "right" one. Deciding one variation is "dirty" or "inferior" or "smeg-head" opens the door to intolerance and bigotry.

Ignorance is not stupidity. People just haven't examined it from a more neutral position. I'm really not trying even to throw dirt at people who accepting of elitist views. I just want to be treated like an equal. Is that condescending?

Yes you are being condescending. Perhaps you dont know what it means? To be condescending is behave towards others in a way which shows that you consider yourself intellectually superior. Yes you did do that by the way you write =)

Now, put away the thesaurus you are not proving to anyone how clever you are =)

[DR4545]

my problem was how you spoke towards other people, telling us how superior you are =) Yes you are being condescending. Perhaps you dont know what it means? To be condescending is behave towards others in a way which shows that you consider yourself intellectually superior. Yes you did do that by the way you write =)
Now, put away the thesaurus you are not proving to anyone how clever you are =)
I really didn't imply this, you are taking the tone of my post a different way than I would read it. I've never claimed any moral high ground, or implied that this forum community is not smart enough to understand my post. I would describe the tone of my post as complaintive, not condescending. I don't find asking to be treated as an equal condescending, although you could argue that I imply being ethnocentric is wrongful. Believing your way is the "right" way is fine. (Although, I disagree with this way of thinking when it comes to language.) Being proud of your country and your language is fine. But when people make degrading comments, should I shrug and say, "well, I'm a dirty American, that's what we get?"

You imply that I don't know what a word like condescending means? That I use words I don't understand? Telling me to put away my thesaurus? Isn't that ... condescending? ;)

[DR4545]

I realized my post title may seem to imply that American English is the "Proper" variation. That is not my intent. My view is that neither variation is intellectually or morally superior. And, usage of either does not imply intellectual or moral superiority. I disagree as much with Americans debasing British English as much as the reverse. I'd rather all of us accept each other for who we are. I don't feel there is a need for a conflict, no need to fight a "war of English" to determine which is better.

My opinion on any "better" variation is this: American English is more popular; that does not make it better. British English is spoken by people nearer to it's geographical roots; that does not make it better.

If English had geographical roots in Australia and the name of it was "Australian" that would not make British English any less valid.

These are my opinions, and if people disagree that is no threat to me. But making degrading comments because of someone's nationality rubs me the wrong way.

[Yang]

Did read any of that...

First post is of an epic lenght...O.o you really do have spare time ;P

[harriergirl]

You math nerds suck big hairy ones.

This is actually 2 topics in one and I shall address them both.

A) The English are Imperialists, always have been always will be.Since it is no longer globally acceptable for them to force themselves and their culture onto other races , they feel the need to cling desperately to what is theirs since most of the rest of the world has given them the finger and no longer really takes them seriously :) Bottom line: The English have always felt morally, intellectually and culturally superior to the rest of us, let them continue to think so and resume mocking them at every chance.

B) Language is not math, there are standards applied so that business and politics may carry on efficiently. But in truth, language is a social tool, developed so that we may understand and cooperate with one another. I would argue that in base function, rules need not apply as long as two beings can communicate meaning. I would even say that applying such strict rules to everyday speech is counter-evolutionary, as our locations, neighbors and and needs change, so must our language. Who knows why certain letters are dropped while others are changed. Sometimes it is to reflect the pronunciation of the dialect, other instances may have been a matter of saving time and space in the written language, especially in times where hand writing and lettering are time consuming and supplies may be limited. The change is done without sacrifice to the meaning and essentially does not matter. For you math freaks I offer you if A= B and B=C then A=C

On a more personal note:
Language is also an artful medium, choosing to speak properly, or to speak plainly, or to jus plain ole talk some brings a whole different dimension to both the spoken and written word and I find it beautiful.

Yours Truly
-HG

[Harbinger]

A) The English are Imperialists, always have been always will be.Since it is no longer globally acceptable for them to force themselves and their culture onto other races , they feel the need to cling desperately to what is theirs since most of the rest of the world has given them the finger and no longer really takes them seriously :) Bottom line: The English have always felt morally, intellectually and culturally superior to the rest of us, let them continue to think so and resume mocking them at every chance.


Totally agree - and I would add that America has adopted the mantle with tremendous vigour (NB. with a 'u')


B) Language is not math, there are standards applied so that business and politics may carry on efficiently. But in truth, language is a social tool, developed so that we may understand and cooperate with one another. I would argue that in base function, rules need not apply as long as two beings can communicate meaning. I would even say that applying such strict rules to everyday speech is counter-evolutionary, as our locations, neighbors and and needs change, so must our language. Who knows why certain letters are dropped while others are changed. Sometimes it is to reflect the pronunciation of the dialect, other instances may have been a matter of saving time and space in the written language, especially in times where hand writing and lettering are time consuming and supplies may be limited. The change is done without sacrifice to the meaning and essentially does not matter. For you math freaks I offer you if A= B and B=C then A=C


Again I agree. Most words that us Brits would consider incorrectly spelled are actually written phonetically - colour for example makes more sense phonetically when spelled color. The ubiquitous 'z' makes sense phonetically in words such as realisation - the 's' more resembles a 'z' in pronounciation.

Some words in English are a nonsense - there is a place near where I used to live spelled 'Trottiscliffe' but is pronounced 'Trosley'. The road at the end of my lane is 'Chomondeley Road' - and that believe it or not is pronounced 'Chumley'.

The Derby as in 'Kentucky Derby' is pronounced by us Brits as 'Darby' whereas the American pronounciation is as it would be expected phonetically. The fact that it is so called because Lord Derby (pronounced Darby - a town in the midlands of England :P) won a toss of a coin with Lord Bunbury (pronounced 'Bunberry') when they were deciding what to call the horserace they were in the process of proposng that would take place annually on Epsom Downs on the first Wednesday in June - some 230 years ago - is neither here nor there ;)

The changes therefore lend themselves to helping Americans learn to spell - and anything that helps Americans to learn must be a good thing ;)


On a more personal note:
Language is also an artful medium, choosing to speak properly, or to speak plainly, or to jus plain ole talk some brings a whole different dimension to both the spoken and written word and I find it beautiful.


Agreed yet again - and no wise cracks this time :D

All tongue in cheek HG :)

[harriergirl]

Harby,

Since I find you to be full of honour, I will change the flavour of my text for my neighbour across the ocean. However I must say my cheeks were aflame with colour when I realised that there is a better place for your tongue than your cheek

:lol:

btw: is it humor or humour ?

[bigjim1222]

I have a few words id like to use with some of you, the least of which would be ass. To the individual who took it upon him(her?)self to revoke our sovierenty, if we had never achieved it and grew to be the country we are, this conversation would be in german, and english would be as dead as latin. So your welcome. I have told people for years that i speak american, and I expect anyone that lives here to do the same. I shall end this post with a question. Why do you pronounce H's and H words the way you do? It makes my jaw hurt.

[Illumination]

First to bigjim: I am an American, but I speak English! Now, calling what I speak "proper English" would bring a chuckle from both sides of the Atlantic, Im sure!

To HarrierGirl: Harb- a man of honour? You should hear what he has to say about women and their rights on a golf course! But, I do agree with you in one regard...there is a better place for his tongue than his cheek;)

[Darryl]

Off-topic posts removed, if you're not contributing anything to the actualy topic, don't bother posting.

[Garrett]

So to sum up the last couple of posts...


so what you are saying is... is that you feel the 'English' language should be protected as an institution much like WOMEN SHOULDNT BE ALLOWED TO PLAY GOLF??

[Illumination]

Yes, lets go back to trolling each other over the English language...that was much more proper and DEFINITELY more enjoyable to read.

I say we start a revolution against the forum's boringness and bring back the fun by posting something worthwhile to read about in all the deadbeat topics. Hey, at least it will give the mods something to do. (kidding, Id never truly spend the time doing such a thing, but I do think the forums these days are boring as hell because no one is allowed to post anything funny anymore).

Conversations in real life as well as here, tend to change as one idea posted by someone triggers a thought in another's head. It is connected and leads to a worthwhile and interesting exchange. Bring the topic back online if it goes off mods...but dont delete posts that have nothing insulting in them at all. Or delete them, what the hell and just demonstrate to all your power's fullness that people arent allowed to have fun with this game anymore.

[Darryl]

If you don't find a topic enjoyable to read, read other ones, or maybe even start your own. Don't just try and take it off-topic because you find that more entertaining.

A request to stay on topic was given, it continued for several more posts, to the extent that the last page was completely off-topic, so I trimmed off the irrelevant posts.

Personal dialogues in public threads

This is also somewhat subjective. While a little, personal, "back and forth" between two Bushtarion players (probably of no interest to the rest of the community) is fine, if it continues for longer than four posts, please take it to the Private Message feature in the forums, or to other mediums (email, MSN, Yahoo etc.).

[urineTroubleBOY]

Read that twice got lost each time. I completely lost interest because trying to figure out whatever point it was you were trying to make was just too damn difficult. I dislike your form of communication.

Fail. Maybe re-type it mostly in caps and 7yP3 l1eK d15. One paragraph max. Oh and I suggest you also over use the smilies.

[Harbinger]

If you don't find a topic enjoyable to read, read other ones, or maybe even start your own. Don't just try and take it off-topic because you find that more entertaining.

A request to stay on topic was given, it continued for several more posts, to the extent that the last page was completely off-topic, so I trimmed off the irrelevant posts.

Personal dialogues in public threads

This is also somewhat subjective. While a little, personal, "back and forth" between two Bushtarion players (probably of no interest to the rest of the community) is fine, if it continues for longer than four posts, please take it to the Private Message feature in the forums, or to other mediums (email, MSN, Yahoo etc.).

Now you're talking out of your aris - because what I've just read is pony. People aint allowed to have a giraffe anymore? - the forums are much the same as the game - brown bread. Run by berks* and merchant bankers I say.

Now, let's discuss the effect cockney rhyming slang has had on the English language.

* Berk is short for Berkeley Hunt - so whenever you next call someone a berk, you'll know what it really means ;)

[tobapopalos]

A guy I work with constantly uses rhyming slang that he has invented himself. He's pretty hard to understand most of the time :?

[Forwyn]

Seriously though, I think the problem most people have is not that Americans are changing the English language, but that a lot of them are trying to force those changes on us, or telling us that our way of spelling is somehow incorrect.

Its spelt stigmatised I didnt "stigmatize" you for where you live.

See? I can pull up isolated incidents where people of one group harass people of another group:

a) as a joke, or
b) because of ignorance

Its not that hard...but you won't find me using these incidents to create outlandish stereotypes, either.

P.S. John Cleese is an ethnocentric douchebag, but a point by point rebuttal would be nothing more than busy work - extremely easy, exhausting, and pointless..