GTA IV

[Treedude]

I can't believe there isn't a thread about this until now :o

Anyone seen some of the new features for the new game? It looks like it's gonna be an absolute beast (online especially), I can't wait to get my copy, although my playing will be somewhat restricted for a while til these blasted exams are done. Anyone played it yet? and how many people have it pre-ordered?

[atsanjose]

hell yeah!

only waiting for compu version :( and buying a new computer with it \o/

anyway, in our forums of our pub we have a thread from over a year old and with 400+ posts just about gta4 :D (and we have like 10 active members :P)

[Markb]

it sounds soooooo good from the wiki article I read. I haven't pre-ordered, I'm going to see if ASDA or Tescos have it in stock tomorrow. I'm disappointed that they haven't made a PC version of the game, so I bought myself a ps3 for that purpose.

[Treedude]

Yeah I am a little baffled as to how there was no thread about what is widely thought is going to be the fastest selling game ever made :P Apparently it's got near perfect reviews so far so here's hoping it's as good as everyone thinks it will be.

I can't wait to try some of the online modes out, some of the gang warfare type games sound brilliant fun

[Tim]

Mine comes tomorrow. Going to form a gang with the people in work. :-P

[Darryl]

I'm disappointed that they haven't made a PC version of the game, so I bought myself a ps3 for that purpose.

I'm extremely tempted to do the same, looking around for somewhere I can get one comparatively cheaply, and I've heard of many that are doing the same, this game is very good news for Sony.

[Treedude]

Can i just ask why it's good news for Sony in particular? I mean the game is available on the xbox360 afterall, a cheaper console. I would have thought if you're getting a console for 1 game then the cheaper console is the one to go for :?

[Markb]

I got some other games with the ps3 (obviously) and got it for the blu-ray drive as I bought myself a new telly the same day. We've got a ps3, so I thought I ought to stick to the same company for consoles for consistancy (though it would have been better if Sony enabled ps2 emulation on the UK 40gb ps3s :()

[Darryl]

Before the format war, I'd probably have gone for a 360, Treedude, but now that the overwhelming majority of movies and so on will be released on blu-ray, the extra cost of the ps3 in comparison to the 360 is worth it.

[Treedude]

Makes sense I suppose, think Microsoft will have taken a hammering in terms of potential sales with the triumph of Blu-Ray over HD-DVD. If I could afford a TV big enough and expensive enough to make use of blu-ray quality i'd be annoyed at buying an xbox instead :P

Does anyone know if there's any difference between the game on the 2 consoles? I can't imagine why there would be, altho why is there no PC version?

[Darryl]

Rockstar always (at least with GTA) release the PC version a lot later than the console versions, I'd hazard a guess that this is for two main reasons, piracy, and the higher sale value of console games. the "hot coffee" scandal probably didn't help too much either! :P

[Tim]

Does anyone know if there's any difference between the game on the 2 consoles? I can't imagine why there would be, altho why is there no PC version?

Rockstar have done a deal with Microsoft so that the XBox will get exclusive downloadable content. Don't know what form this will take yet though.

I was going to get the PS3 version but all my friends have 360s so I'm getting it for the 360 purely for the online play...


the "hot coffee" scandal probably didn't help too much either!


I'd say that probably helped them more than hindered them. The GTA series breeds upon controversy. ;)

[Treedude]

Just got back from a terrible exam, seeing GTA waiting for me with the post has gone someway to improving my mood tho :P /me gets fired into it

[Bobbin]

got it, playing it, loving it.

Early on it seems pretty bog standard GTA stuff.. hopefully as time passes it will get to have alot of the newer stuff in it...

The driving is annoying me a little in this game though, but i bet I'll get used to it with time..

[Tim]

I like the new driving style - it seems more realistic and easier to drive somewhere without crashing into everything.

Overall, pleasantly surprised at how similar to other recent GTAs it is, a bit frustrated that I have to learn a whole new map (!) but very pleased.

[BlackWolf]

I tried to read whats new in this game and all i could find was new graphics engine, ability to hang from bumbers and call taxi... So anything actually new? Any good review i could go to read?

[Treedude]

I think all the reviews you'll find will say pretty much the same thing, check the wiki page for it tho, pretty sure it has a load of reviews listed as sources

I agree with Tim, I like how it's fairly similar to the other games, it's just the little details combined with the sheer scope of the game that are making me think it's awesome. It's in depth without being overwhelming, and as always the storyline is very involving. Do agree that the driving takes some getting used to, still can't figure out how to take corners at any sort of speed without spinning out, suppose it might be easier in a better car, will have to keep playing to find out :P

[Souls]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Thef ... V#Gameplay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto_IV#Gameplay)

Loooooots of things. I love it :D

[BlackWolf]

I really do hope its as good as you all say it is... i really liked previous ones... will be long wait to get it to only real gaming platform tho :/

[Treedude]

Pfffh, only real gaming platform my arse :P

Back on topic, has anyone had much of a go on the online modes yet? I've just played the story, don't think my skills will get me anywhere online other than if I wanted to lose all the time. My most annoying control flaw at the moment is I keep pressing the button to leap from the car because I think thats the handbrake for some reason, think I played too much Need For Speed, god damn muscle memory :P

[pinpower]

been playing it since tues morning, i actually missed half my first lesson on tuesday to go into town and buy it before they ran out...lol

absolutely loving it, each time they bring out a new gta (apart from the PSP ones) i think its the best game ever made, purely based on the insane size of the game...there is weeks of single player material alone

i also love the detail, like when you go online there are loads of different sites that you find out about through spam emails and stuff, just funny little additions that you can relate to. also like how if you go out with a friend for drinks you get drunk and driving becomes really difficult, and if the police see you drink driving you get a wanted level etc

i dont know if i like the driving, im getting alot better at it now but i think it might almost be TOO realistic...but like i said im getting used to it now

ive been playing alot since it came out and i've barely scratched the surface..LOVE IT!

also, in comparison to san andreas (which is still a ****ing awesome game) i like how they have made eating only necesary to replenish health, and the whole "girlfriend" thing is now pretty optional (you get an achievement for some stuff)...also i like how they have taken out the gym bit (those that played san andreas will understand), while it was fun at first after you've played most of the game and are doing other things having to go and eat/go to the gym all the time just got really annoying



also, on a side note 360 is so much better than the ps3 which is overpriced and sucks ass!

Also, microsoft have exclusive downloadable content coming out later in the year which, amongst other things, includes a number of added "episodes" that you will be able to play, each one lasting roughly 9 hours...meaning the 360 copy will have extended single player possibilities

also online on 360 is far superior to the ps3...which ill say again...sucks ass.

[Bobbin]

Having now gotten used to the driving I am completelty in love with this game..

It's so Massive, like seriously, me and 4 of my friends spent the last few nights playing on free roam just exploring and it's awesome... Plus, crashing into the Empire State Building with a helicopter and jumping off on top... such fun!

I'm at about 20% completion now, jsut unlocked the centre Island, and it's taken me about 8 hours... so this game is gonna last a while..

[Carnage]

Got it on release day (PS3 version) .... have played maybe 15 hours approx ... and love it.

So far I have just unlocked the second island, and have spent most time doing side mission stuff before progressing. I have completed all the 'Most Wanted' kills, the Little jacob drug deals, All my friends and GF like me 100% :)

It took a while to get used to the new buttons (eg. I keep clicking X and Square buttons for braking and acceleration when in a rush), but otherwise I'm getting the hang of it and love 4-wheel powersliding around corners :P

I've been reading about this "freezing" issue on net forums and on Friday it happened to me. It seemed to occur after I tried playing online... then next day it would stop on the "Loading xxx" screen and wouldn't move on (at start-up). I finally resolved this by deleting the game data (not the game saves though) and letting it to the initial install again ..... no further freezes and I'm not going near online again until I hear they have fixed whatever the issue is.... or until I've finished the single player stuff

But from the brief experience i had online (1 Vs 1 against a ps3 friend for a couple of goes and 1 race mode against him).... it rocks. Being able to hide yourself anywhere in the city and waiting for the other guy to come, or just hunting the other guy down was a blast!!! I had a mad shootout in one of the burger stores with customers screaming and running for their lives which amused me to no end :)

My only other suggestion to people complaining about 'bluriness' or 'haziness' is to turn the 'Flicker-Filter' OFF (In Game Display Options) ..... with this setting on I had to adjust the contrast/brightness almost to max to see in shadows and at a distance. With the setting turned off, I could play with these settings on default (50%) and it was awesome ... but I am also only using a SD TV so with HD it's probably alright to leave it turned on

.. and finally to the x-box fan-boy (PinPower), I personally wouldn't care what console I played it on, it would still be great. And whilst I have heard that there will be downloadable content for x-box soon, I have heard that there will also be downloadable content for the PS3 eventually too. I guess that with the extra add-ons the PS3 version needs (eg. getting it to work with the six-axis controller and getting it working on the PSN for online play), it probably just will take a little longer.... but I would be surprised if PS3 didn't end up getting the same 'updates' down the track (especially as GTA isn't a microsoft owned game)

That's my 2 cents :P


[range] 1 allied Niko Bellic attacked, killing ALL the hostile population of Liberty City.

Died: Millions of enemies dead.

-Enigma

PS: My PS3 nick is "E-N-I-G-M-A" .... add me. I may not be playing GTA online yet, but I am still loving CoD4 online and would love to hunt you all like animals :P

[Bobbin]

PS3 isn't getting the additional content as microsoft have an exclusibity deal with Rockstar for it.

Poor you for having the lesser console :P

[BlackWolf]

Poor you from having console! When it arrives to PC im gonna play it at 1600x 1200 with full AA and all candies and its gonna roxor your boxors like nothing ever... beaing so much better than some stupid console crap.
;)

[Cyrus]

but lets be honest anyone would take a game with 95% good gameplay and 5% graphics

than 0% gameplay and 100% graphics which is basically what youve got mright now, youve got no game to play

the rest of us have GTA and bashing it out right now whilst your waiting 6 months +, and i say plus because it might even be alot longer than that =)

[Bobbin]

early next year for PC version... maybe... so you're looking at 8 months to a year to wait for it.

As they won't just do a straight port to PC, they'll do it properly and likely completely redesign the control aspect of the game, plus others, so you're talking a lot of development.

[f0xx]

than 0% gameplay and 100% graphics which is basically what youve got mright now, youve got no game to play


Bushtarion? It doesn't even have graphics so its 100% gameplay! :D

+

I don't know about GTA4, but all the previous versions were less than crap. Now I would understand if you buy a console for a game like Starcraft2, but GTA4? Come on... I prefer spending those money on hookers...

[atsanjose]

I don't know about GTA4, but all the previous versions were less than crap. Now I would understand if you buy a console for a game like Starcraft2, but GTA4? Come on... I prefer spending those money on hookers...

yeah but thats just because people like you in romania are used to all the violence in the neighboorhood,
we (from the west) can only fantasies about those things

[Alcibiades]

Right, so i bought this game a few days ago and it is beastly.

As far as the console argument goes, so long as you enjoy the game, and have fun, you could be playing it on a cardboard box for all i care. Console choice comes to down to personal preference so enough of this garbage argument **** about who's console is better. ffs peeps... grow up.

As some people said the driving was new but it took all of 5 minutes for me to turn into a regular wheelman.

I love the graphics, i love the characters, gameplay... Everything.

So far the only complaint i really have is that i don't particularly like the radio stations... it's just not my kind of music but meh.

oh also, and this will seem hilarious in the context of the games we're talking about, but i've always known/understood that GTA is a fairly vicious/crude/violent/despicable game (in it's content, behaviour etc) but i really really do think that GTA4 may have crossed a few boundaries so far. I mean the opening scene is a man getting spanked by mostly naked girls with a leather whip... I mean i'm all for leather in the bedroom... but in a game that just about anyone can play/buy? Meh. I know this won't change anything, but i think they crossed a line somewhere in the development stage of GTA. not to mention the absolutely unbelievable amount of profanity from everyone in the game. (less of a game criticism than a personal annoyance i guess...)

Overall, the game is amazing.

EDIT: My usual gripe for GTA games is the stupid effing safehouse only save method. I hate it so much, it's just such a pain in the ass imo.

EDIT 2: Is this the Sims or GTA? I get tired of having to 'entertain' my girlfriend/friends etc. I mean you don't seem to have to do it, but ffs, this isn't a game about 'building meaninful relationships' and having nice friendly bonding times over some beer. Sheesh....

[Cyrus]

haha about the radio stations, for some reason in previous GTA's i just put the country and western channel on, even though i have no real interest in that music i find it rather funny and good to sing along to :P

[pinpower]

you dont have to take your girlfriend and friends out...but i would advise you take out some of them at least as after they like you 60-70% (depending on the character) you will get a special friend bonus

for instance Romans friend bonus is he sends out a cab to pick you up which will take you anywhere in the city for free (and quickly

i suggest you work up your friendship with dwayne, roman, brucie (helicopter version of romans) and LAWCHICK from the online dating agency

[Alcibiades]

I understand that pin. It just annoys me when i'm running around gunning down cops/thugs/'*****es' and suddenly my cell phone goes off with my needy whiny friend who wants to go play pool. ****. just go play with yourself Roman you lazy slob.

[atsanjose]

I understand that pin. It just annoys me when i'm running around gunning down cops/thugs/'*****es' and suddenly my cell phone goes off with my needy whiny friend who wants to go play pool. ****. just go play with yourself Roman you lazy slob.

i thought you didnt own a cellphone :/

[Alcibiades]

I understand that pin. It just annoys me when i'm running around gunning down cops/thugs/'*****es' and suddenly my cell phone goes off with my needy whiny friend who wants to go play pool. ****. just go play with yourself Roman you lazy slob.

i thought you didnt own a cellphone :/

Ingame cellphone ;)... and i hate it for the very same reasons i hate real life cellphones :o

[vlad]

I understand that pin. It just annoys me when i'm running around gunning down cops/thugs/'smeg-head' and suddenly my cell phone goes off with my needy whiny friend who wants to go play pool. smeg. just go play with yourself Roman you lazy slob.

i thought you didnt own a cellphone :/

Ingame cellphone ;)... and i hate it for the very same reasons i hate real life cellphones :o

Sarcasm is just wasted on some people.

[Alcibiades]

I understand that pin. It just annoys me when i'm running around gunning down cops/thugs/'smeg-head' and suddenly my cell phone goes off with my needy whiny friend who wants to go play pool. smeg. just go play with yourself Roman you lazy slob.

i thought you didnt own a cellphone :/

Ingame cellphone ;)... and i hate it for the very same reasons i hate real life cellphones :o

Sarcasm is just wasted on some people.

Ask stupid questions, get stupid answers ;)

[Tapey]

Is there nething new in this game or is it stil the same old game with a dif charicter?

[Alcibiades]

Is there nething new in this game or is it stil the same old game with a dif charicter?

there are lots of new things. the main biggest change would be targetting and driving i think. There are a whole host of improvements that make the game amazing in general. I'm sure people have written either links/changes in the rest of this thread, so feel free to read it. ;)

[Lupus]

my absolute fav still has to be GTA vice city, great game. Though GTA 4 is brilliant and the graphics are awesome

[Tapey]

Dnt sound 2 bad frm wat i red. I normaly enjoy gta games bt get bored with em b4 the end. The story lines realy suck. Bt the gameplay is quite gud normaly. Bt i wnt b buying it il jst play it at a mates.

[pinpower]

Dnt sound 2 bad frm wat i red. I normaly enjoy gta games bt get bored with em b4 the end. The story lines realy suck. Bt the gameplay is quite gud normaly. Bt i wnt b buying it il jst play it at a mates.


oh sweet jesus write properly...

[Lupus]

he is south african and probably hungry leave rich alone u big meanie!

[Tapey]

Im sorry arb person. Im uneducated and on my cellphone. Its not a good combination. Trust me ;D

[Loz]

Dnt sound 2 bad frm wat i red. I normaly enjoy gta games bt get bored with em b4 the end. The story lines realy suck. Bt the gameplay is quite gud normaly. Bt i wnt b buying it il jst play it at a mates.


oh sweet jesus write properly...


he plays bush on his mobile lmao text talk ftw and rich FTW <3
so leave him alone pin u big bully !

[Azzer]

I'll just paste what I replied to a post on the Gamespot forums for GTA IV with (the thread was titled "GTA IV: Great, but not as FUN as San Andreas"). Sums up most of my feelings;

I agree with the OP on most points. I feel that the replay factor has been seriously reduced. Wide open country areas that split the game world up were excellent - I liked the feel of openness, driving across fields, up a mountain side, over hills etc. - it added to the freedom and feel of open exploration. The city in GTA IV looks great but it is all city - while there are differences between the islands/areas, they are all still city. Compared to San Andreas GTA IV just has no distinct different areas at all - the island of happiness and the large park are about it, really.

Driving is definitely more along the lines of a "simulation" now, rather than a fun game. I enjoyed the slightly unrealistic burning my car around at top speeds swerving around every corner, it was great fun. Sure the collisions, damage models etc. in GTA IV are unparalelled (and you/other people flying out of windsrceens if hit in a certain place at the right speed is great), but the skidding around every single corner at more than moderate speed on a number of cars (and even the better handling cars aren't great) reduces the fun and the nature of "GTA" in all the previous games.

The army coming after you is greatly missed. I loved watching the place turn in to a military lockdown, watching tanks and RPG soldiers marching around on the streets, it was great fun. GTA IV is just police, police, police. Anyone else miss raiding the army base and stealing the attack helicopter? Or the planes you could fly around?

Jetpack/parachute - these I really miss. It really added to the exploration, and the "open-endedness", as well as the replayability. Most of my time in San Andreas, after completing the missions, was spent jetting around, finding high points to base-jump from with the parachute etc. - and because it was a good mix of urban and country, there were lots of fun/cool things to do.

GTA IV has made some giant leaps forward with the technology. But it has definitely made steps back with the gameplay.

Overall I'd give GTA IV an 8, but say that San Andreas was definitely a lot more fun and had a lot more replayability.

Slightly disappointed overall in the steps back :(


The original post was;


Sure it's a great game (8/10), but it's lost a lot of things that made the last game so much fun.

Things that made San Andreas better ...

1) Wide open country areas - a nice break from the city. GTA 4 feels the same no matter where you are in the game which gets a bit boring.

2) Driving was fun. Now it's fairly difficult and a bit of a chore. The damages to the cars do look great though!

3) Famous actors doing the voices, always nice to hear a voice you recognize. GTA 4 seems to have hired a bunch of nobodies! They did ok though.

4) Jetpacks & Parachutes! These were great fun. No sign of them in GTA 4, big disapointment.

5) Being able to swim underwater. Finding dead guys with concrete shoes was funny. You can only swim above water in GTA 4.

6) Marine life (dolphins, turtles etc) were a welcome distraction in SA, even if you couldn't shoot them! No such creatures in GTA 4.

7) The army coming after you. When those tanks start rolling up you know you are in trouble! I have had 6-stars in GTA 4 a few times and no sign of any army dudes so I guess they have also been left out.

Seems almost like a step backwards with GTA 4 despite the major gfx improvement and various other details. Completed it last night and enjoyed it but prefer San Andreas a lil' bit more :D

[Bunion]

If what you say is true about the army and other such stuff, then it is a disappointment. I shall agree with the points about GTASA, as it is one of my all time favourite games, even if it is primarily a console game for this PC fanboy.

GTA4 still looks like a "must have" but seems like gta3 enlarged instead of the progression VC and especially SA brought to the series.

[Treedude]

Never really got into San Andreas, couldn't be arsed with having to hit the gym all the time and eat to live, bit too much for me. The only point I wanted to answer to tho was the driving which i am bloody loving. I'm as much a fan of skidding around corners as the next guy (give me the handbrake cornering of NFS any day) but i love the driving system in GTA IV. I hardly ever use the taxis, have only done it twice, drive everywhere and once i got the hang of it its so good. Been especially loving the races online, so much fun :D

Do agree with no parachutes tho, that is disapointing, but then ive not really needed them at all yet. No army is a bit **** as well, no tanks in fact, but i wouldnt say that has hindered my own personal enjoyment of the game, yet anyway :P

As to some of the other points, there are still some famous people (love the Ricky Gervais stuff, and Baz Rutten), but marine life and being able to swim underwater i can't see as anything other than just looking for holes, that's such a minute portion of the game :P

[Bunion]

A point that has appeared again and again about SA is the gym and eating.

I am currently replaying SA as a distraction from 4. While I was in Los Santos, I went to the gym and bulked up. I haven't been back since, and my muscle is still maxed and my stamina is increasing as I run around everywhere.

I barely eat, except when I want to heal, and never suffer for it, especially since most times I want to heal, I just go to a safe-house and save.

[pinpower]

yeah i was actually thinking about this yesterday in a bit more detail...looking comparatively i think i prefer san andreas overall...purely for the reply factor...i think i spent more time playing san andreas after i had completed it tbh...

pretty much of the same opinion as the azzman, i miss: parachutes, planes (the jet was a laugh once you'd completed the game), the army coming after you, being able to modify your car was fun...make it look just how you want, garages that fix your car for you (tis getting annoying having a great car but it gets all smashed up), the countryside...i actually thought this as soon as i started playing gta4...but i didnt think it would really bother me, but looking back it does.

also, does anyone else miss the bikes, like bicycle bikes i mean...they were a laugh...and i was loving jumping off that ramp at the top of the mountain on one.

worst bit of san andreas was definately the having to go to the gym thing, but arguably you could say that an equally annoying bit of gta4 is having to meet up with your "friends" every couple of nights (although its more optional in gta 4).


overall GTA 4 is ****ing amazing, and i still havnt quite finished it so im loving it...im just thinking that once i finish it the replay factor isnt going to be that great...as with gta 4 i find im spending less time in between missions just messin about compared to SA.

basically with GTA 4 they have moved towards a more realistic game (which i heard they were going to do before the game came out). And while this has been great in a way as I definitely think the missions in gta4 are better overall it has seriously decreased the replay/free roam capabilities (for me anyway) of the game. While there are alot of funny bits (alot of crude humour etc) what with the websites, "cherry popper", and little things like that...the overall game is far more serious which now im almost finished and looking back over this and SA is actually a negative i feel

Like the azzman said GTA 4: 8/10 - San Andreas: 9/10

[tobapopalos]

yeah i was actually thinking about this yesterday in a bit more detail...looking comparatively i think i prefer san andreas overall...purely for the reply factor...i think i spent more time playing san andreas after i had completed it tbh...

pretty much of the same opinion as the azzman, i miss: parachutes, planes (the jet was a laugh once you'd completed the game), the army coming after you, being able to modify your car was fun...make it look just how you want, garages that fix your car for you (tis getting annoying having a great car but it gets all smashed up), the countryside...i actually thought this as soon as i started playing gta4...but i didnt think it would really bother me, but looking back it does.

also, does anyone else miss the bikes, like bicycle bikes i mean...they were a laugh...and i was loving jumping off that ramp at the top of the mountain on one.

overall GTA 4 is ****ing amazing, and i still havnt quite finished it so im loving it...im just thinking that once i finish it the replay factor isnt going to be that great...as with gta 4 i find im spending less time in between missions just messin about compared to SA.


Like the azzman said GTA 4: 8/10 - San Andreas: 9/10


Agree with all of this. I used to love breaking into the military camp and stealing the harrier jumpjet, and then flying round like a maniac under bridges and in river valleys...until that inevitable moment where a skyscraper magically appears in front of me and I die.

GTA4 is technically a far superior game. I love the driving, the graphics are great, the combat is good...but it just seems to be lacking something. San Andreas was so much more playable.

Also, I really hate the "friends" thing. Nothing more annoying than finishing a mission and having like 5 missed text messages from friends telling you what a neglectful ******* you are.

[Souls]

The easiest temporary solution is to drive them into the water, but that's only a temporary fix. You have to pick them up from the hospital some time :P

[Mattheus]

OK so I just bought this, yeah I'm slow etc - but I can't help noticing that everyone seems to be wnking off over this game in this here thread. So heres my opinion:

The game is ****.
The first half hour or so is spent pretty much taxiing your cousin around, then things get REALLY interesting when you go BOWLING.
WOW WHAT FUN

Yeah yeah I have a short attention span, yeah I'm sure it gets orgasm-inducingly good later on. But I don't really fancy waiting.

I've found it's the same with every other GTA. The first few missions of the story mode are painfully dull so they can ease you into things - usually just driving someone around and picking people up etc. But I've never had the patience to stick through it. So I just go round rampaging through the city until that gets boring (usually a few minutes) Then it never graces the inside of the console again.

The saddest thing is that I fall for the hype each and every time a new GTA is released. :(

[philipd12]

played it once, not playing it again.
I agree with everything Mattheus said.
Another thing that annoyed me about the game was it was always dark when i played it :\ meh. maybe thats just my tv but after all the hype the game got before being released it was not a patch on what i thought it would be :(