Bikers

[Franny]

Make the stupid things Eta 4 so that they can actually be defended against FFS.

[DarkSider]

Make all protestor units have half health and half armour ;)

[Twigley]

There is just 1 thing that needs to be changed.

* Political Masterminds do x% less AD/HD damage to Bikers.

[Cheese]

2 poms supporting bikers getting pwned
1 biker not wanting bikers to get pwned :P

Usual situation :P
If you get pwned you complain
If you pwn you defend your units :P

[DarkSider]

2 poms supporting bikers getting pwned
1 biker not wanting bikers to get pwned :P

Usual situation :P
If you get pwned you complain
If you pwn you defend your units :P


I didn't said don't change bikers. But if you change them so rushing eta 3 wouldn't be possible anymore the prot units have to die much easyer to most lethals fireing ALL as second/third targeting class. Protestor is still the route that usually takes the least damage in a big BR but it has some downsides. If you want to nerf bikers you have to nerf prots to other tactics/units.

[Hippie]

There is just 1 thing that needs to be changed.

* Political Masterminds do x% less AD/HD damage to Bikers.

ffs Twigley. i said that 4 rounds ago

[willymchilybily]

Make the stupid things Eta 4 so that they can actually be defended against FFS.


or
buy hypno's and bribe some rpg/f117's/emp/pa's
or
if in an alliance get some one to counter/ maybe even phone/text target so he can run away
or
get more news vans and hippy vans minimising losses

Point being? game is pretty balanced imo. its not like a pom is going to make it high on a terrors enemies list without continuously targeting the same guy for his land/seeds. so its hardly going to be for any bounty. just mindless killing for the sake of it. so if some one has chosen to mass enough bikers to be able to be a threat to a pom then he probably has not much else for his score, as bikers are relatively expensive compared to the rest of the route

[Podunk]

Make the stupid things Eta 4 so that they can actually be defended against FFS.


or
buy hypno's and bribe some rpg/f117's/emp/pa's
or
if in an alliance get some one to counter/ maybe even phone/text target so he can run away
or
get more news vans and hippy vans minimising losses

Point being? game is pretty balanced imo. its not like a pom is going to make it high on a terrors enemies list without continuously targeting the same guy for his land/seeds. so its hardly going to be for any bounty. just mindless killing for the sake of it. so if some one has chosen to mass enough bikers to be able to be a threat to a pom then he probably has not much else for his score, as bikers are relatively expensive compared to the rest of the route


Hehe, you must not be familiar with darksider this round... and the top alliances.
Darksider has...
Petrol Bomber [135,325,281] Jeep [277,774,806]
Biker [224,596,941]

When you see that eta 2... there isn't a single unit that you can send to defend that fires before poms. Your only choice right now is to get that Pom on, or they die a miserable death.

I have hypnos, and the only opportunity I've had a chance to bribe units has been on massive defense. My only targets that I could bribe that are in range are bunker/sentries, thugs, poms, and 1 SO guy with High AR. All are wastes to send hypnos on as they get targeted by the few LETS that do fire and get killed.

The 3 top alliances have warred with each other since the first 3 days of the round. Barely any time for random attacking.
And yes we're all contactable but sometimes you don't wake up the 4th or 5th time you have a rush on you in a single night.

Also, the reason the rush is so annoying this round is lets say you get killed by the rush... then when your injuries come back you get rushed again and again... you can see why there is a need to get some sort of way to allow an alliance to defend against it a bit easier.

And yeah the game is balanced... at lower valuations :P

[f0xx]

Make the stupid things Eta 4 so that they can actually be defended against FFS.


or
buy hypno's and bribe some rpg/f117's/emp/pa's
or
if in an alliance get some one to counter/ maybe even phone/text target so he can run away
or
get more news vans and hippy vans minimising losses

Point being? game is pretty balanced imo. its not like a pom is going to make it high on a terrors enemies list without continuously targeting the same guy for his land/seeds. so its hardly going to be for any bounty. just mindless killing for the sake of it. so if some one has chosen to mass enough bikers to be able to be a threat to a pom then he probably has not much else for his score, as bikers are relatively expensive compared to the rest of the route


Hehe, you must not be familiar with darksider this round... and the top alliances.
Darksider has...
Petrol Bomber [135,325,281] Jeep [277,774,806]
Biker [224,596,941]

When you see that eta 2... there isn't a single unit that you can send to defend that fires before poms. Your only choice right now is to get that Pom on, or they die a miserable death.


You are miserable if you cannot defend that at ETA 2. Jeez I was thinking you are talking about this thing poping up at att for 3.... but now when you said it pops up at eta 2 and you cannot defend it... its your fault really.

*throws a book called "manual" at Podunk*

Learn how to defend.

[willymchilybily]

And yeah the game is balanced... at lower valuations :P<----my only Criticism to your comment. ( ofc i dont agree with your theory :P but your entitled to your own opinion)

I’m not at a low valuation so I wouldn’t know for sure.

But the theory that some higher up can’t use the same ratios that work for some one that is a microcosm of his score is ludicrous.

not to mention the likely hood is that the person at the top got to the top because he attacked better than the person lower down and had more time to plan and exact his attacks with precision timing. Hence when you show me darksiders units and imply he was unstoppablt i just think that means hes better than most and played well

well done to him. i recon you can still defend against him though :D

[Subdivisions]

A top alliance shouldn't have that big of a problem vs bikers really...if you think about it for about 10 minutes and you still can't come up with answer...well then, think more :P

[Podunk]

Make the stupid things Eta 4 so that they can actually be defended against FFS.


or
buy hypno's and bribe some rpg/f117's/emp/pa's
or
if in an alliance get some one to counter/ maybe even phone/text target so he can run away
or
get more news vans and hippy vans minimising losses

Point being? game is pretty balanced imo. its not like a pom is going to make it high on a terrors enemies list without continuously targeting the same guy for his land/seeds. so its hardly going to be for any bounty. just mindless killing for the sake of it. so if some one has chosen to mass enough bikers to be able to be a threat to a pom then he probably has not much else for his score, as bikers are relatively expensive compared to the rest of the route


Hehe, you must not be familiar with darksider this round... and the top alliances.
Darksider has...
Petrol Bomber [135,325,281] Jeep [277,774,806]
Biker [224,596,941]

When you see that eta 2... there isn't a single unit that you can send to defend that fires before poms. Your only choice right now is to get that Pom on, or they die a miserable death.


You are miserable if you cannot defend that at ETA 2. Jeez I was thinking you are talking about this thing poping up at att for 3.... but now when you said it pops up at eta 2 and you cannot defend it... its your fault really.

*throws a book called "manual" at Podunk*

Learn how to defend.

I said there isn't anything that you can send to defend that fires BEFORE poms when an inc is eta 2 for a first tick defense.

Sure you can send defense, but if poms fire before the lethals fire none of the rush gets killed because its all distracted.

[Subdivisions]

Once bitten, twice shy.

If someone is rushing a PoM in your alliance regularly, you have to send fast stuff like gargoyles, petrols, apaches, etc.

The point is you're trying to bluff them, because if the PoM is online...he sends away last second and boom bikers dead, ggnore! I can guarantee you someone like DS, with 200m bikers, wouldn't stay if there is any reason to believe all his bikers die in one tick.

Sure, if the person calls your bluff, the PoM gets hurt, etc. But, the one time it isn't a bluff will make the biker think twice...

Not to mention all the other things that can be done...like park at HQ with some RPGs, PAs, etc

And of course, bribing RPGs, PAs (as already mentioned) always helps...

[willymchilybily]

so to drag this but up but forgot to say also
Biker: Kills [all] NLD
* Does -50% less Armour Damage against unit type(s): Machine/Vehicle, Robotic.
* Does -50% less Health Damage against unit type(s): Machine/Vehicle, Robotic
Stats: ** / ** / *** / **
ETA: 3
Initiative: 140

i.m.o. its clear its to fast to be easily stopped from firing. but its so weak at damaging hippyvans and news vans due to the average armour damage and reduction bonus. just keeping them in a good ratio wil greatly reduce the damage you take.
but also an alternative would be to get any other poms online to send all thier hippy vans, and news vans (with -eta1 for defending) that way the biker will have more targets to attack that he cant kill. and reduced damage penalty will minimise losses further. If your willing to take the risk.

[Melnibone]

Most good alliances do, as well as non poms sending hippys to defend as although they are easily killed they are cheap flak for the bikers to kill rather than the expensive poms

The problem lies in their ETA and initiative, with an eta of 3 (2 when sent at the end of the tick) and an initiative of 140 there is virtually nothing that targets lethals with a lower init than poms that can be sent, because of this its be online or get hurt, very few units have the power to do this and escape unharmed..... bikers can

People who complain about bikers mainly do so because they are tacticians of the game i personally do not mind any legal tactic but i at least would like to be able to have some chance of countering it without having to wake/disturb someone, as an alliance player i dont mind bad odds i dont mind overwhelming forces or anything else like it but i do at least expect to have a chance of defending my ally mates with bikers theres none.....

[Souls]

Once bitten, twice shy.

If someone is rushing a PoM in your alliance regularly, you have to send fast stuff like gargoyles, petrols, apaches, etc.

The point is you're trying to bluff them, because if the PoM is online...he sends away last second and boom bikers dead, ggnore! I can guarantee you someone like DS, with 200m bikers, wouldn't stay if there is any reason to believe all his bikers die in one tick.

Sure, if the person calls your bluff, the PoM gets hurt, etc. But, the one time it isn't a bluff will make the biker think twice...

Not to mention all the other things that can be done...like park at HQ with some RPGs, PAs, etc

And of course, bribing RPGs, PAs (as already mentioned) always helps...


Only problem with that is that his bikers won't all die in one tick, as he has his 300m jeeps there too. ;)

[Pete]

oops just realised strikers are slower than bikes

[Augustus]

So far no one has focused on the disadvantages of bikers:
a)they only target NLD
b)they die fairly easily
c)their ratio against a well balanced PoM arent even 1:1
d)having too many makes you an easier target for larger players

So what is being suggested is that you take away one of the few advantages of this unit. Whilst we're at it lets make Harriers eta 4, increase the reveal eta on SAs and Sins and decrease the armour and health of T-rexes.

[Melnibone]

Simply because Augustus in a decent sized alliance players have the luxury of massing them the reason why they are *more* unfair than other rushing units is because they target pom route exclusively and any sensible biker rusher will send enough to kill most of the gurus/hippys/pleaders etc etc doing insane damage but then the poms fires and stops any later firing units from doing damage back

I personally think any battle in bushtarion should be a fight you can win without getting the player online with harriers/so etc etc even if you cant get quicker units there you can still kill them with later firing lethals in no's with bikers it appears a very cheap tactic as unless the target is online its free ticks of kills with no possible chance to counter until lower init units (all with much higher etas) can arrive to do anything

[Subdivisions]

Only problem with that is that his bikers won't all die in one tick, as he has his 300m jeeps there too. ;)

Erm...well at the time of my post, I know that Interlude had 2 players that combined to give over 200m harriers, and an apache player with 65m+ apaches, not to mention the other lesser armies they have consisting of petrols, and gargoyles.

And, I don't know Enigma as well, but I do know at the time of my post they had a player with 400m+ gargoyles, and I'm sure they have other people with a decent amount of anti-rush units.

The only real excuse is activity, because DS cannot continually fight those numbers, even with 300m jeeps...sorry if this comes as a surprise to you...

[f0xx]

Again lazy people who do nothing but complain... if you WANT to stop him, you WILL find a way. If you don't want to stop him, you will find a reason.

"he has jeeps..." - is that your best excuse? bah...

[Rosa]

Only problem with that is that his bikers won't all die in one tick, as he has his 300m jeeps there too. ;)

Only problem with that logic is... jeeps do 800% armor damage against other jeeps ;)

Again lazy people who do nothing but complain... if you WANT to stop him, you WILL find a way. If you don't want to stop him, you will find a reason.

I totally agree with f0xx's logic... but then if you can't beat him you can always join him and do what he's doing... if it's really that unstoppable I don't understand why people (people in inter/engima) aren't doing the exact same thing that he's doing.

[Augustus]

Simply because Augustus in a decent sized alliance players have the luxury of massing them the reason why they are *more* unfair than other rushing units is because they target pom route exclusively and any sensible biker rusher will send enough to kill most of the gurus/hippys/pleaders etc etc doing insane damage but then the poms fires and stops any later firing units from doing damage back

I personally think any battle in bushtarion should be a fight you can win without getting the player online with harriers/so etc etc even if you cant get quicker units there you can still kill them with later firing lethals in no's with bikers it appears a very cheap tactic as unless the target is online its free ticks of kills with no possible chance to counter until lower init units (all with much higher etas) can arrive to do anything

I understand your point Melni, but does it justify changing Bikers when like you say it is only a problem for people at the top? Like other people have said if it is such a great tactic then why not retal in the same way. As it stands PoMs dont have many anti-routes (if any), i think Azzer may view this as a price you pay for such a strong route. If it was a continuous problem i would consider getting an SA or RPG player to keep those biker numbers down. On the bright side at least you get 80% injury.

[Melnibone]

Not really a bright side tbh mate, Poms have it bad enough in any ally never mind the top, they are the lynchpin of all good allies e.g. in the awards thread most of the defense awards go to poms therefore any tactic which by its very nature is unfair and practically undefendable should imo be changed (btw i never go poms, well not since rd 8 and i usually target them as most poms cant deal with REAL layered flak)

I like most of your posts Augustus as you have a hunger for this game a lot of us oldies have lost but i really think your wrong on this one and bikers should be changed to eta 4 :)

[Franny]

People are saying that we should learn to defend these biker incs however.

Bikers in comes, 200m biker, 300 Jeep, 250m PB, eta 2 on all 3 poms in my allaince. However to stop us defending there is now the added threat of 400m Gargs on each target aswell...

Go on then Foxx teach me how to defend.

[willymchilybily]

People are saying that we should learn to defend these biker incs however.

Bikers in comes, 200m biker, 300 Jeep, 250m PB, eta 2 on all 3 poms in my allaince. However to stop us defending there is now the added threat of 400m Gargs on each target aswell...

Go on then Foxx teach me how to defend.

I'd use hooligans if you had enough. to strip the armour. mainly against gargs , and armour. and run the poms away leaving all else hippy vans and news vans, . also if you have a harrier online use him. emp harrrier heavy preferable.
and flack with as many hippy vans as possible. i assume pb is petrol bombers and petrol bombers are weak hp/ap
petrols gargs biker, all lethal, you could always use sirens. send in gargs to fire b4 thier gargs and petrol bombers to fire before thier pb's. and if you have enough sirens send shock troopers too if the sirens do well enough. anything eta 3 or less that can fire before them or after your sirens.

and along with all my later lethals from the other players I would send a load of witches from another player. incase he stayed middle tick.
* Does 35% more Health Damage against route(s): Thug
* Does 35% more Armour Damage against route(s): Thug

ofc any decent let's wouldnt arrive to middle ticket. so yes its unlikely they would stay. but if they did then punish them.


If your alliance isnt big enough, and organised enough or have enough diversity. and enough of each unit. then thats your problem. because they are organised and big enough to send at you and most alliances are of similar size this round.

also id let the poms you could get on run so you dont have to split your units. and when they come one and run id get them to send thier hippy vans as a seperate mob to defend the pom that cant get online. and if it was a land hit the eta would be high enough for you to send some real units.

I don't know if your being out played or overwhelmed. but you could always retaliate if they over commit too many units. and use the same tactics against them. quick burst mobs. sent at the end of a ticket. maybe using different units. strategically. using these bonuses that azzer has added

But hey thats just what i'd do im sure f0xx has his own tricks up his sleave. :P

Edit: made mistake. on witch init. fires b4 harrier hooli but meh you get the idea by the time middle tick came you could have striker to strip armour any way


and yes its all wishful thinking. because i dont like to just give up. i think its more fun to try things out. and give them as good as you can back.

[Alcibiades]

People are saying that we should learn to defend these biker incs however.

Bikers in comes, 200m biker, 300 Jeep, 250m PB, eta 2 on all 3 poms in my allaince. However to stop us defending there is now the added threat of 400m Gargs on each target aswell...

Go on then Foxx teach me how to defend.

I'd use hooligans if you had enough. to strip the armour. mainly against gargs , and armour. and run the poms away leaving all else hippy vans and news vans, . also if you have a harrier online use him. emp harrrier heavy preferable.
and flack with as many hippy vans as possible. i assume pb is petrol bombers and petrol bombers are weak hp/ap
petrols gargs biker, all lethal, you could always use sirens. send in gargs to fire b4 thier gargs and petrol bombers to fire before thier pb's. and if you have enough sirens send shock troopers too if the sirens do well enough. anything eta 3 or less that can fire before them or after your sirens.

and along with all my later lethals from the other players I would send a load of witches from another player. incase he stayed middle tick. so that after your harrriers and hoolis strip they can use thier
* Does 35% more Health Damage against route(s): Thug
* Does 35% more Armour Damage against route(s): Thug

ofc any decent let's wouldnt arrive to middle ticket. so yes its unlikely they would stay. but if they did then punish them.


If your alliance isnt big enough, and organised enough or have enough diversity. and enough of each unit. then thats your problem. because they are organised and big enough to send at you and most alliances are of similar size this round.

also id let the poms you could get on run so you dont have to split your units. and when they come one and run id get them to send thier hippy vans as a seperate mob to defend the pom that cant get online. and if it was a land hit the eta would be high enough for you to send some real units.

I don't know if your being out played or overwhelmed. but you could always retaliate if they over commit too many units. and use the same tactics against them. quick burst mobs. sent at the end of a ticket. maybe using different units. strategically. using these bonuses that azzer has added

But hey thats just what i'd do im sure f0xx has his own tricks up his sleave. :P


Most of the above answer to Franny's post is an unbelievably absurd mish mash of 'what ifs', wishful thinking and ideal allies. I think you should take a minute to evaluate exactly what kind of response you advocated, then try doing that with an ally that isn't ranked 1-3. Think about it, and realize that the situation is 100% FUBARed if that sort of thing can happen.

[willymchilybily]

so are you complaining about the eta of the unit like the topic or is it the amount what is being sent in comparrison to the allies capabilities.


I no longer understand the problem sorry.

[Podunk]

"I'd use hooligans if you had enough. to strip the armour. mainly against gargs , and armour. and run the poms away leaving all else hippy vans and news vans..." if your pom can run away from the rush theres no need to defend :p

Heh, we're talking 1 biker player attacking here, and perhaps a massed garg player is all. Thats 2 of 20 if they were in the same alliance. So a retal wouldn't be overly effective, as you have to send defense to the offline poms, commiting 2-3 members units' of your own alliance.

Sirens would be a good idea as would sorcs, but none of the alliances I've seen this round have any. So scratch that as well

Hooligans are effective vs the gargs yes. Almost have a 1:1 ratio with them. Problem is not too many thugs like to mass hooligans to counteract one player not to mention have all of your thugs do that just to cover a potential rush. Harriers are nice to have, one of the best anti garg units out there, deal massive damage but are really weak.

Yeah hippy vans make good flak for other NLDs, but most poms don't like to mass these units either, Poms are essential in mass defense/offense and for attacks in general, where hippy vans are merely nice to have there. Theres other uses though ofc but I'm just stating the general idea.

[f0xx]

People are saying that we should learn to defend these biker incs however.

Bikers in comes, 200m biker, 300 Jeep, 250m PB, eta 2 on all 3 poms in my allaince. However to stop us defending there is now the added threat of 400m Gargs on each target aswell...

Go on then Foxx teach me how to defend.

Send fakes? Get people online to send out in the last minute?

Getting really tiresome of repeating the same thing over and over again...

Have you ever tried defending 5 hours of 600 mln 80% XPed TLs trying to break your defence? That is impossible... and despite that there were people who were able to do it back in the days. They werent lazy though...

[Augustus]

Not really a bright side tbh mate, Poms have it bad enough in any ally never mind the top, they are the lynchpin of all good allies e.g. in the awards thread most of the defense awards go to poms therefore any tactic which by its very nature is unfair and practically undefendable should imo be changed (btw i never go poms, well not since rd 8 and i usually target them as most poms cant deal with REAL layered flak)

I like most of your posts Augustus as you have a hunger for this game a lot of us oldies have lost but i really think your wrong on this one and bikers should be changed to eta 4 :)

Ok I'll say that age and experience prevail over this one ;) But I still think that what is being asked is too much considering the minority that will benefit from proposed changes. And if it was a consistent problem for me I would insist on being woken up at whatever hour so I could send away my PoMs and HVs so my Hypnos could bribe his ass :D That would surely be enough to put him off for a little while.

P.S. I prefer your softly, softly approach Melni :lol: