McDonald's course equivalent to A-levels?!

[CLem]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7209276.stm

I don't really know much about what they do in the course but I just thought WOW, A-level is being devalued to this standard in the UK.

If I did A-level maths, physics, chemistry, history etc etc you know the standard orthodox modules and is told that now McDonald course is as highly regarded as those then I would be damned, I'd had dropped a unit and work at McDonald's instead to earn some cash AND get a reckonised general certificate.

I understand that it helps people working at those levels to climb ladders, but I don't really think there are needs to be anymore "vocational" courses if you can write a decent CV and can show the skills you earned in job interviews. Hope I don't sound snobbish when I make this post, but there are already tones of people with 3 As in A-levels and a lot of companies are finding it hard to actually hiring "talented" people and are spending crazy amount of money on HR.

[Alcibiades]

Don't wory Clem, the first time a McDonalds educated worker plows his 137 million dollar F22 Raptor into the ground and kills three generals and their attendant staff I figure people will reevaluate the standards of a McDonalds degree ;)

Yes I agreee this is ridiculous tho, a McDonalds degree is now worth a ton of hard coursework for the UK? hell no. I"d be furious.

[Treedude]

I would hope that this course is only applicable to very defined areas and that the qualification can't be carried on to other jobs otherwise, it won't have the same clout as "regular" a-levels do (otherwise we're all in for a bright future of idiocy and lunacy apparently :P)

[CLem]

Apparently 4 out of 10 universities have expressed that they will not accept the quailfication, so hmm just another thing to keep some people happy whilst having very little practicality i think

[Nonny]

There are companies who simply look for an equivalent. I.e. to be an area manager for Aldi the German retailer, (wage £50k plus per annum), you must have a degree or equivalent. It can be in picking your nose as long as it's a degree! If this is fairly commonplace and applies to A levels .... who need uni, go to McDonalds!

[Bobbin]

I don't see the problem with gaining qualification while you're working?

When i worked for mcdonalds i did a NVQ while i was working there, and i don't see ANY problem in being able to gain higher level qualifications while working at all.

It just means that those people who chose to go to work after school, can eventually if they choose, go to university. Sadly College is not the way to gain qualifications for everyone. Some people are happy sitting in a classroom day after day, and having a ton of coursework to do. However, many people are not. And the more means for people to become a qualified person the better.

[CFalcon]

You can hardly equate an A level in history or chemistry with an "A level in McDonalds". It really makes no difference if they're officially ranked as equal. A serious employer or university admittance tutor will know the difference, how hard they are relatively, and whether the skills gained from them are of any value.

[Darryl]

I don't think anyone is saying there's anything wrong with learning while you work, Bobbin, not at all. There'd be little issue with people working at McDonald's while they were doing their A-levels, the criticism just comes from being able to obtain an A-level from them.

I doubt it'll mean much anyway; look at General Studies, it is supposedto be equivalent to a "real" A-level, but most Universities exclude it from their entry requirements, it'll be the same for this.

There's a problem with the whole A-level UCAS system anyway, and this merely highlights it. It's bad enough that A-levels such as sociology and the like are deemed equal to those of mathematics and physics..I don't think the points sytem works.

[CLem]

This whole "equivalent" concept is the source of the problem, and it doesn't just apply to A-levels or diploma. It also applies to university degrees, I was at a careers convention of a major financial service provider and during a chat with one of the HR officers we stumble across the application entry requirement, which is a 2.1 in ANY discipline.

Now because they cannot discriminate people's degree and such a person with a 2.2 in a physics, maths or economics degree will actually be screened out and people with 2.1 in sports science, golf course design or David Beckham studies will actually be assessed instead.

So what I'm saying is that in the future, running this "equivalent" theme with A-level and MacDonald's level may result in the same situation as mentioned above if someone brings a university to court for not accepting this "equivalent" qualification and seems like the government is willing to run this risk which is rather stupid.

[Bobbin]

But it wouldn;t be an A-Level in Mcdonalds.

It would be a vocational degree or the like, in something such as management, Or one of the many food/service/tourism type qualifications.

Plus it's not all entirely done by mcdonalds too. There is in house, and out of house training required.

Personally, I'd take anyone with job experiance and a qualification over someone with higher qualifications any day.

Work experiance counts for alot more than qualifications imo. And you say... "It's just Mcdonalds", I'll have you know, the requirements to get into the management there are bloody tough. You have to do multiple exams, one of them in very tough mathematics. So just because you think Mcdonalds is a nothing job, It's not at all.

As i said before, being able to gain qualifications THROUGH work, not along side with work, is a good thing, and is another avenue to higher education for those who aren't suited to the college/university style of doing things.

[Tim]

But it wouldn;t be an A-Level in Mcdonalds.
It would be a vocational degree or the like, in something such as management, Or one of the many food/service/tourism type qualifications.


It sounds like an entirely new course, however allegations that people will be earning an A-Level in flipping burgers are wide of the mark. The course will involve things such as shift management, waste minimisation, and everything essential to run a busy fast food restaurant.

While I don't see anything wrong with it, it's not something I'd be interested in. But not everyone is capable of or wanting to do one of the "proper" A-Levels like maths or physics or whatever so why not give them a chance to learn on the job?

[CLem]

I am not saying the working experience in a busy fast food chain environment is useless and require no brain. At this time of age, experience is a lot more valuable than text book knowledge for a lot of things.

What I am saying is that from my point of view putting two different type of learning practical (McDonald's) and academic (normal A-levels) as equivalent is irrational and quoted from Gordon Brown: "Once you've got that qualification you can go anywhere" is about as naive as it can get.

Yes, employers in the fast food and retail industry will value the practical qualification a lot more as they don't need to invest less on developing and training so it will really help the ones that want to climb up the management chain but on the other hand getting into higher education with this qualification will show little support I think, will elaborate later, got to go to lectures

[pinpower]

It's bad enough that A-levels such as sociology and the like are deemed equal to those of mathematics and physics..I don't think the points sytem works.


i strongly disagree with you here..who decided that maths and physics is a more "worthy" A level than sociology... have you done sociology (i dont do it...i was told its really boring...lol)...TBH it is pretty in depth tho from what i hear around college...

pretty much all A levels should be classed the same IMO (except general studies...which is basically like join the dots 3 hours a week ;) )

but i agree with the topic, mcdonalds course being classed the same as an A level...what is the world coming to...most of the people who work in my local mcdonalds shouldnt be allowed in society let alone uni...lol

but yes, i imagine it'll be disregarded by alot of places...also as far as uni application goes basically all of the worth while courses specify certain A levels you must have (i.e at least a B in maths or w/e)



note: i realise my use of the phrase "worth while courses" could be taking offensively, it isnt supposed to be...

[Charlie_B]

I spent under 10 hours total (including 6 hours of exams) getting a B in General Studies at A level 5 years ago. I'd be pretty confident you have to put more effort than that into getting a grade on this McDonalds course - having to turn up frequently enough to not get fired seems a greater requirement in itself.
I for one am pleased to see more vocational qualifications being introduced into the curriculum. I think the idea that certain subjects like Maths are 'better' than other subjects to be ridiculous. Businesses frequently complain that students come to them with none of the practical skills required in the business place because they waste all their time on things which, ultimately, aren't as practically useful. I'd be surprised that as a lawyer I'd often have recourse to the higher level calculus I studied at A level.

Clem - you seem to be missing the point somewhat here. By saying that the course will be 'equivalent to' an A level, they're simply saying that it will gather a similar number of UCAS points (ie evidencing a similar amount of time spent on it). It has always been the case that Universities will consider specifically what qualifications a person has got, in addition to the number of UCAS points they have, when considering their application. There's no difference here to any other vocational qualification that's been around for ages.
If you applied to do Biochemistry on the back of a McDonalds qualification, you've not got much chance, wheras if you apply to do Business Management then it could be regarded by a valuable qualification which evidences practical knowledge and experience in the field.
As far as employment goes, they screen out lower qualifications because of the vast number of applications you get. If you seriously think that someone with a low 2.1 in a 'useless' field is going to get a job that someone with a relevant 2.2 has been turned down for, you're mistaken - it just means they've got loads of people applying with 2.1+ in a relevant field.

p.s. Anyone who complains that they're struggling having got 3 As at A Level should have done four or five :P

[Welshie]

What does "equivalent" mean indeed? Equivalent as in it gets you points to get you into University? I think the Universities can tell the difference between a Management course given by MaccyD and a Chemisty A-level. Equivalent has no meaning as no A-levels are equivalent as none of them have any value except in certain contexts. If I want to get a job in managing a restaurant, then my Management A-level from McD will be worth much more than my Physics A-level. If I want to get a job in Computer Science research then my Computing A-level will be worth more than my Physics which in turn will be worth a lot more than a French A-level. A-levels are tools for two things: Getting into Uni and getting a job. In both circumstances you are dealing with humans who are perfectly capable of assessing the relevance and credulity of your qualifications.

So in short, I don't see the fuss.

[CLem]

Charlie I have not once dismissed the fact that universities can specify requirements when it comes to admissions, I have been through the UCAS system as well. Since a lot of the top 20 unis have already shown no interest in accepting the qualification, it leaves us with the ones that are not over subscribed to (i.e the non-top 20) which often gives only point specific offers.

And as for employment go, there are a lot of companies that specifically state that they will take in ANY discipline at 2.1 level from ANY university, if you come from a "good" university and do a "good" course but don't achieve 2.1 level, your application WILL be screened out unless you have mitigating circumstances with evidence to back it up. That is word for word from an HR officer of a global company. This is because of the issue of "equivalence", yes they know that some courses are harder but they cannot face the risk of law sue of discrimination against equivalent degrees to damage their public image.

Education and qualifications are means to signal your ability, and with the numerous and growing "equivalent" qualifications, it is making it harder for the employers to differentiate potential talents and pushes people to take on further and unnecessary qualifications. Back in the days, having 3 As in A-level is hard, now practically everyone I know has at last 2As. And to differentiate ourselves we were pushed by teachers,schools and parents to take on more subjects all because the courses are easier and there are a lot of equivalent qualifications.

[Dark_Angel]

You guys are looking at this all wrong.

Welshie is on the right lines. There are hundreds of courses equivelant to a-levels, that isn't to say that in practice they're as valuble.

For example a-levels are, in my opinion, pretty weightless unless you're going to uni. Very few workplaces require a-levels or even aknowledge them as anything "good" vs someone without them. They're only of any use if you're going to apply to university, in which the UCAS points system comes into play.

With this McDonalds qualification staff are trained (and notably not all staff - only those interested in managerial posts) and given this qualification - which would not have any use when applying to Uni. Pressumably it'd only ever be good in a sector-relevant job such as in another customer-service role.

Claiming its unfair that McDonalds are carrying out the same function as a college/sixth form is quite simply mis-informed.

[CLem]

With this McDonalds qualification staff are trained (and notably not all staff - only those interested in managerial posts) and given this qualification - which would not have any use when applying to Uni. Pressumably it'd only ever be good in a sector-relevant job such as in another customer-service role.

One of the purpose (the only purpose imo) of this qualification is to help people get to higher education, and as you point out there, might not be much use at all. And the experience you gain from working and abilities you possess can be shown easily on a well written CV.So why bother? Also does it mean that people working at burger king and KFC are less qualified because they don't do it?

[Charlie_B]

The growing number of qualifications mean that education is becoming more tailored to the varying needs of students, and more specific - which in turn means it's better for businesses. I got 5 A levels while my best friend (whose grades in academic subjects were average at best) got a distinction in BTEC Electrical Engineering. Who would you rather have wiring your house?

The suggestion that someone might be unfairly disadvantages because they did esoteric A level subjects and went to a 'good' Uni but only got a 2.2, while some slacker did an 'easy' McDonalds course, got into a 'rubbish' Uni, and got a 2.1, is utter nonsense.

[CLem]

Charlie my point is that the intention of the qualification is good, it is great to help people to get onto higher education and all that, change their life, give them more opportunities. But the practicality is not there, just simply looking at the fast food industry, say you are looking to start a fast food business looking for someone to fill the manager position, you have 2 applicants, one with McDonald's qualification and one without but had worked in Burger King for the more years as than the one from McDonald's, who would you pick now? Is the one qualified necessarily better than the one that worked at Burger King?

[Bobbin]

I don't think you get the qualification at all though.

It's not just a matter of turning up to work, and you get it. You would have to do some academic stuff too. Build a portfolio, be on the job assessed (watched while you work), have to write reports on what i did, why i did, what i could have done better. Etc etc.

My mum trains nursery nursing in one of these type of job placement courses.. day release in effect. And i can't see the mcdonalds course being any different. Infact, Mcdonalds have been doing it for years, since i worked there... Offering an NVQ that you can gain while you work. I did it. Only draw back is.. Once a week you sit down with your tutor and do paper work, and have to write reports etc... You have to do a case study, all these academic type things, that while you are doing your normal job, with a little extra effort, you can gain. I see it as a very good, and valid thing, and a university who wouldn't want to accept someone with this qualification to do a RELAVENT degree, is well, discriminating, just because the course comes from Mcdonalds, doesn't make it any less.

Some of the people who work at mcdonalds are very smart, it's the same with all service industries. Yes, you do get the people who work there because they can't do anything else. But it's not the case for everyone. Some people prefer to work that sort of work, i know I do. Thats why i quit my nice cushy office job to go back and work at a cinema. Because i prefer that type of work. Not because i can't manage a 'real' job, or a job that people see as being hard and worthwhile..

[Hobbezak]

As i said before, being able to gain qualifications THROUGH work, not along side with work, is a good thing, and is another avenue to higher education for those who aren't suited to the college/university style of doing things.

A degree is more than just sitting in school banks. I think everyone has a moment where they really don't like being on those banks, and would much rather be out somewhere. But it's the perserverance that weeds the people who deserve a degree from the people who don't.
So basically I'm saying if you aren't suited for your college style of doing things, you don't deserve a degree. A degree is clearly a lot more than just proof that you have certain knowledge. It's about that, but also about perseverance (as I said earlier), about proving you have the ability to study large amounts of material in a short period...
I can tell you from people who work AND study for a degree (in Belgium ofcourse) through eveningschool, that it is VERY hard to combine working and studying. So I really don't see how MacDonalds is going to make a degree that is equal to the eveningschool one.
Thirdly, you say earlier in your post that you value experience over a degree. Then why would someone who has the experience, care for a degree? It's like having a university degree, but afterwards going for a highschool degree?

[atsanjose]

i just got my kentucky fried chicken degree!

nobody can fry chicken like me!

puh :bday:

[CLem]

Bobbin, I am not challenging that the course itself is not intellectually demanding itself, I am saying that it is not equivalent to an A-level as they assess different things. A person that got a good grade in A-level had gone through the traditional way of learning and the grade partly reflects the person's ability to learn as well as an important part of how well one will survive in a more academically challenging environment (university and such).
As you said before, people that work at McDonalds may work there just because they can't stand the traditional sense but they can still do well in getting the qualification, so the person can be a damn good manager but will not be able to sit through hours of lectures and piles of course-works.
Yet for a relevant course, business management for example, the two are equivalent even though the 2nd person might be completely unsuited for the university learning environment because either they don't like it, or because they have been out of the normal education system. There are excepts of course but they are less common and this will truely benefit those minorities. I am not saying the qualification should not exist, but don't make it equivalent to something that it is only marginally comparable to it. There are too many short comings and I think that for the ones that truely want to get into university could do a basic course (GS for example) without breaking much sweat and also the ones that want a better job (which I happen to know one that moved from working at McDonalds to an accounting firm) they don't NEED the qualification, firms can assess your experience and abilities via assessment centres which they invest a lot of money in, just be able to comfortably talk about your experience or write it on your CV is good enough according to her.