Anti Rape change

[Cheese]

Saying AR is now 'easier' to trigger and the AR mod decreases quicker now are we going to be told the new figures, e.g. what amount triggers and the new rate or is it going to be another bushtarion secret?

[Azzer]

It's the AR mod that has changed. The rate at which it increases from losses has increased by roughly 20%, but the rate at which it drops back down again has increased by about the same. So immediately after being hit it's now "easier" to get AR, but a while after being hit won't be as easy as before.

[Iamsmart]

Azzer...thats not what we meant at the Creators Day....We wanted it to be easier to trigger at 0% AR, its way too hard at that point, especially now with no psolo...

[f0xx]

Who cares what you want?

[pinpower]

Bit harsh...lol

But I agree with what Iamsmart is saying tho, i think it should be easier to trigger at 0% rather than overall...

x

[Azzer]

Lowering of the 1.45/2.5/5.5/13 levels?

[DarkSider]

Yes, i was fairly convinced that was the thing discussed and agreed on since creators hour.
Easyer to trigger with 0 ar mod since bunkers is the only playable route atm as solo in higher ranks, all others are ez mode to kill by at most a 2 man combo. And as downside ar mod to drop a bit faster.
The 20% faster ar mod gain is hardly helping since most of the times you get killed you should get over 100% ar mod anyway :P

[f0xx]

Lowering of the 1.45/2.5/5.5/13 levels?

1.45? I thought it was 1.6?

[Azzer]

1.45? I thought it was 1.6?

Changed quite some time back! :P

[f0xx]

Getting old I guess... :(

Well I think 1.45 is too low already and with the reduced land score things should be alright.

[DarkSider]

At a quick calc with one of the strongest and popular solo routes i got:

SO on 15 k acres with 20 mil agents 30 mil assasinss.

15k acres = 2.25 bil score
20 mil agents 30 mil assassins = roughly 2.5 tril = 5 bil score

So total score with developements and some seeds is easly over 7.5 bil

At 0 ar mod currently can be sent 5.45 tril worth of units which let's say is 100 mil poms or 50 mil poms 50 mil PA. If you saw a few BR's with this units you know what to expect.
Change around with vamps, a robo alone and other routes and see if the maximum mob attacking a solo is actually fair.
And all this considering the SO doesn't have any score into units which won't help deal damage like say 20 mil gards 10 mil traps 10 mil yobs 2 mil spikes which means an extra 1 tril worth of troops can be sent :s

So imo it's way over the overkill limit :P

[f0xx]

DarkSider, no matter how much you tweak it, even if it triggers above 100% of a person's score, a pom, pom + PA, smart robo or vamp player will ALWAYS be able to rape the **** our of a SA.

As a solo you always get your injuries + insurance and high AR after you have been killed, while in allaince sometimes you might not even get defence and on top of that you might not get any injuries + insurance as well. And that is till without bringing "solo partners" into the equation.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to abuse the **** of the overpowered solos, I just think we should try to give more power to alliances instead.

[Iamsmart]

I still don't know why people think giving power to alliances makes sense if they win every round :P and someone earlier posted that removal of psolo should balance this? It makes the situation (this specific one) worse, not better so im not sure where they got that :P

[Dakbrew]

And with the new Injury/Insurance policy since you receive cash for lethal troops killed when you get Raped your score stay higher then if you lost all your troops and never got any insurance.

This makes it even easier for a group to kill your lethal troops and keep you in range longer so they can keep coming back for your land.

Before when you got raped 15 ticks later you had lethal troops people had to get past with out setting off AR.

I thought the whole point of AR was so a solo player could be have some time away from the game with a reasonable expectation of not being zeroed when he returned.

the current system will fall very short of this.

[Azzer]

I think before any more changes are made to solo/AR related stuff, we should run a round and see how things pan out, as at this stage, it is going to be purely speculation and guess work as to whether or not it needs tweaking, and if so, in what direction.

[Iamsmart]

...?

Why? The current change has nothing to do with what we WANT changed :P

[DarkSider]

I think before any more changes are made to solo/AR related stuff, we should run a round and see how things pan out, as at this stage, it is going to be purely speculation and guess work as to whether or not it needs tweaking, and if so, in what direction.

So we're left with faster ar mod drop and huge score from insurance money ? How can that be balanced by 20% faster ar mod gain which is only usefull if you get flaked earlyer in the round or pom-ed later so you loose acres without getting killed ? I doubt it happens many times to get killed without your ar mod not to reach max anyway so you just weakened solo play a lot and say stay one round like this and see if it's fair :s

[Cheese]

I think before any more changes are made to solo/AR related stuff, we should run a round and see how things pan out, as at this stage, it is going to be purely speculation and guess work as to whether or not it needs tweaking, and if so, in what direction.

It's clearly significantly damaged solo play so why not act now and see if that change works?

[pinpower]

So we're left with faster ar mod drop and huge score from insurance money ? How can that be balanced by 20% faster ar mod gain which is only usefull if you get flaked earlyer in the round or pom-ed later so you loose acres without getting killed ? I doubt it happens many times to get killed without your ar mod not to reach max anyway so you just weakened solo play a lot and say stay one round like this and see if it's fair :s


I didnt even fully realise how much this change sucks til i read that...

Yeah definately seems to be a change for the worst...Dont think its a good idea to leave it a whole round with solo play being even more difficult at a point where we are trying to get new players to join the game and continue to play. I would guess a fair proportion of those players will be playing solo, meaning harming solo play is directly harming the games chances of expansion.

(I agree with you in that this is all speculation, but from what i see its more likely to harm solo play than help/stay the same even. Do we really want to be making the game harder/harming a popular style of play at a time when we are trying to increase the playerbase dramatically???)

[Iamsmart]

I think before any more changes are made to solo/AR related stuff, we should run a round and see how things pan out, as at this stage, it is going to be purely speculation and guess work as to whether or not it needs tweaking, and if so, in what direction.

Bump - Sorry but I still think this deserves a good look and I think some others agree :)

[DarkSider]

I killed same solo's every ~2-3 days no problem until most of them quit/joined an ally, ar mod is droping way too fast and the level at 0 ar mod is very high.

[DarkSider]

At a quick calc with one of the strongest and popular solo routes i got:

SO on 15 k acres with 20 mil agents 30 mil assasinss.

15k acres = 2.25 bil score
20 mil agents 30 mil assassins = roughly 2.5 tril = 5 bil score

So total score with developements and some seeds is easly over 7.5 bil

At 0 ar mod currently can be sent 5.45 tril worth of units which let's say is 100 mil poms or 50 mil poms 50 mil PA. If you saw a few BR's with this units you know what to expect.
Change around with vamps, a robo alone and other routes and see if the maximum mob attacking a solo is actually fair.
And all this considering the SO doesn't have any score into units which won't help deal damage like say 20 mil gards 10 mil traps 10 mil yobs 2 mil spikes which means an extra 1 tril worth of troops can be sent :s

So imo it's way over the overkill limit :P

DarkSider, no matter how much you tweak it, even if it triggers above 100% of a person's score, a pom, pom + PA, smart robo or vamp player will ALWAYS be able to rape the **** our of a SA.



I have no problem with a Robo raping a SA, in fact i'm sure that's the way it should go. My problem is when you can send about twice the troop count that would already demolish them.
Read the example above, 110 mil PA vs 50 mil stealth = the SO doesn't even fire. How is that balanced ?

[Polo]

Read the example above, 110 mil PA vs 50 mil stealth = the SO doesn't even fire. How is that balanced ?

Unless that 50m stealth is ninjas, they would fire. :P

[Iamsmart]

PA's get 3:1 on ass/SA

[WackyJacky]

AR is great for saving you're land, at least for the few days I have been a solo PoM this round. Unfortunately to stop land loss I have to go mass PoMs/Gurus so when I was bikered last night I lost 210 bil, which of course I can get back with my land in under 24 hours. However I will no doubt have to give up some of my land later today to raise my AR back up to 80%+

AR just isn't that great.... I have to give up land at least once a day, usually twice, to keep my AR up where I need it to be.

When I get small biker incoming, it doesn't do anything for me and I lose troops and get a 90% AR mod, which isn't going to do much for me. The biker will be back once I'm back to 80% or something, and I'll die again.

It drops too fast, the troop setup I have to use to keep my land safe when I don't want to lose it leaves me open to small biker hits.

[Alcibiades]

Saying AR is now 'easier' to trigger and the AR mod decreases quicker now are we going to be told the new figures, e.g. what amount triggers and the new rate or is it going to be another bushtarion secret?

AR drops at 0.12% per tick. As for the rest of the info you request, i do not know :(

[Iamsmart]

If you need that its quite simple Alci

500 * player score * 1.45 * (1-AR) = Amount needed to trigger AR.

[Alcibiades]

If you need that its quite simple Alci

500 * player score * 1.45 * (1-AR) = Amount needed to trigger AR.

orrrrrrrr just use nobreakspace :D

*insert shameless plug for NBS here*

[Iamsmart]

Spot me 5 quid? :D

[DarkSider]

Actually i used same formula for my calcs when attacking solo's for many rounds (well with 1.6 before and a bit different for the old psolo) but since i unexpectedly triggered on 2 of my attacks this round and reported to Azzer he said the formula is different :|

[Iamsmart]

Wait - Different from the one that I posted? :S

[lavadog]

No, it still is like you said Iamsmart, I used it the other day and it worked out. I think DS still worked with the 1.6 value and psolo

[Chezz]

Actually i used same formula for my calcs when attacking solo's for many rounds (well with 1.6 before and a bit different for the old psolo) but since i unexpectedly triggered on 2 of my attacks this round and reported to Azzer he said the formula is different :|

did you take into account of AR mod?

[Iamsmart]

dude, he's the maestro, of course he did.

[Chezz]

well obviously you can't know exactly the AR mod and so you can't really predict exactly whether you'll trigger or not. Unless it was really far off? Somebody enlighten me on this. :shock:

[willymchilybily]

I use the same formulea. but as i use a claculator i do it differntly, i work out AR drop (0.12% a tick) 6ticks per game day count the days from the spie. and got the amount the ar has dropped. from then til now. normally if the target gets mashed from incoming i assume the ar is at 90% on the final battle tick

therefore my calc goes

[((AR drop)+10)/100] * 1.45 * Targets score * 500 = max. Value(£) of mob that can be sent at target

NB.[+10 = -90+100]

assuming 90% ar after the last defence/attack on the target.

and it has worked every time. the only problem has been when the person has been very active and made alot of attacks. as generally i ignore the AR generated by loosing troops on an attack. unfortunately if u hit a puppet this can tend to be quite high.


Anyway off topic.

from this i have managed to work out very accurately what i can send at a target. and when a target has had low ar. 21%(no news-577 ticks) the amount you can send is phenominal.

i am a sorc i have been working with a puppet player. and just the other day we managed to bribe 16million tl's from a target. (out of 26mil.)

now if u think about it. we used sirens to disable as many as possible. and poms to get the few extra the sirens couldnt cover. and stop the flak.
This meant we had sent a mob big enough to disable him completely. then ontop of that we could send 9million puppets!

at 90k a pop not the cheapest unit in the game. so we had a riddiculous amount of troops there. more than enough for any robo to rape him 3 times over. okay this is a kindda biased example. as he was such a poorly set up tl. perfect to bribe. 10mil visible lethals (pb's and terrors) 26mil tls but only 500k bikers and 1mil jeeps. so he was a perfect target to bribe for us.

but even the harder targets to bribe. the fact we can bribe people using poms and sirens and puppets. meanign were sending enough troops to disable them, and then enough to bribe them on top. just goes to show the ar is a bit to hard to trigger when low.
THEN I REALISED WHY. he had sooo many funds stored up. he had soo many seeds stored up. he could have bought up to or had 35million TL's and if he had that many if he had all his seeds, and funds as troops. then we wouldnt have easily raped him. then we would have easily bribed him. In fact he wud have ruined us. If you play solo normally its hard to kill a route unless ur designed to kill that route. and no AR tweak will stop them dying to thier counter part. thier natural enemy. okay at the moment u can send a bit much a bit overkill. but no matter what you do a TL will still DIE to a robo. and IF people still sit on seeds as a solo they are going to DIE! fact. look how many people have <300 acres and are in top ranks with no troops cos they have so many seeds. If a solo is sitting on all those funds. and not spending them thats there fault.

you try killing a solo with 40% AR and all his seeds and funds as troops. its just not worth the hassle and casualties for the bounty. especially if your properly bounty hunting hitting >50% range.

To summerise there is so many parts and reasons why a solo may die easily. that i dont think ar is that bad atm. Hell its not until the AR gets to around 20% that you can even send a mob of equal score to that of the targets score. You will never be able to balance it such that an RPG has a hard time killing a solo robo with 0% AR.

[Turnip2k]

Look - we all agree this game requires too much activity.

Making AR drop faster is making that MORE of a problem, not less. Solos are dieing, because you cant play them inactively anymore, which was the reason 90% of people went solo. I have noticed a severe reduction in solos in the game, but that may just be me (some stats from azzer would be nice).

This is having a very major impact on the game because its reducing quick and easy targets for people. Solos are EASY targets to attack if you arent active - you send, come back in 45 mins and check for AR. Removing them forces you to attack allies - and in most cases that can't be simply done with a 'send, come back 45 mins later' attitude, it takes ALOT more time to fake, draw defense, monitor for retals etc... I can't have a hope in hell of doing a good attack at the moment without devoting several HOURS to the game in one chunk, and have help from others while attacking too. Is that good for the game? No.

Killing off solos is making the activity requirement for this game go up and is hurting it, bad.

Make it so solos are attractive targets (so you CAN hit them when they are available), but ensure that when they do get hit, it doesnt cripple them for days and undo hours and hours of time put into the game (so ensure people WANT to play solo).

[f0xx]

Oh, what a load of crap Turnip :P

Less solos = better for the game. Not the other way around.

[Turnip2k]

Less solos = better for the game if you are active? Yes.
I personally want easy targets, since I don't want to have to spend 2-4 hours on every single god damn attack. I want to kill stuff, without it taking up my whole evening.

Problem is, people who aren't active don't generally tend to argue their case on these forums.

[f0xx]

Less solos = better for the game if you are active? Yes.
I personally want easy targets, since I don't want to have to spend 2-4 hours on every single god damn attack. I want to kill stuff, without it taking up my whole evening.

Problem is, people who aren't active don't generally tend to argue their case on these forums.

Well, there is a spark of thruth in your words, BUT... at the second in which you make solos require less activity, i.e. make the easier to play (which means boost them in different ways), a lot of the players who are playing in alliances will take that route. More solos = less alliances. Less alliances = dying game.

I personally think that the balance at the moment is quite good.

[Turnip2k]

Less solos = less players. Less players = dead game.

Making solos better (more enjoyable, not necessarily more power or 'easy') wont immidately force all the ally players into solo. Making solos terrible will drive off all the people who refuse to play ally from the game totally.


There is a balance needed, because some people just don't want to play ally. If you give them a choice of basically join an ally, or don't play, they won't play. I know that what I play in an ally, I get pushed into playing more actively than I want - and so I simply won't do it (I made an exception this round for an old friend). I'm sure there are many people out there in the same position.

I think we need to make solos enjoyable for people who are inactive, but still provide good targets.

I'm not saying make solos easier to play, just more interesting (i.e. not zeroed every 2-3 days on the dot).

[f0xx]

Alright, how do suggest that to happen without making them to powerful for when a strong (and active) player picks solo?

[Turnip2k]

Make them easy to kill, but have higher insurance or somthing and far less of a total AR mod.

That way, the top allies wont mind because they have an easy target and the solo won't mind because they will have units to attack with when they log on.

The solo may get landraped, so perhaps tie AR into land more than it is into units (perhaps have specialised land defence gov unit, non lethal). If the insurance is pretty high, the need for AR is reduced alot.

[DarkSider]

@ willy

You are talking about a BRIBE that gives no insurance to the target and a shitload of profit to the briber. This kind of attack shouldn't come with 0 looses. Assmuming best case scenario with a big 0 land score on the thug player at 0 ar mod and assuming sirens get something like 1: 1.5 on tl's ( i think it might be higher not exactly sure) we get:

Thug with 10 mil tl's = max mob that can be sent = 580 bil, that means you need the ~ 6.7 mil sirens to stun all tl's that cost ~312 bil so a wooping ~3 mil puppets can be sent while stuning everything the thug has. You can get a good idea what happens in a tick or even after 3 ticks. That's with no land score, no gards,harvs, basics, seeds funds and whatever you write there that's the solo's fault to make the attacking score even higher and with a 100% tl setup. Sure jeeps would be harder to bribe, they don't kill all that much and you can add some let flak for your puppets in that case but the profit should make it worth it, we're talking about tl bribes for low looses for a puppet = heaven ? :P

And the 40% ar solo's are not worth it to attack is alot of rubbish. I made profit on solo's with over 50% ar and minimal overall looses even between 70 and 80 ar. Considering in just 2 days ar drops about 35% i find the current ar not providing much help to give solo's a chance to enjoy playing.



Turnip is spot on, MAJORITY in favour of 100% ally play just want to force all the players in alliances no matter if they like it or not, without thinking of any food chain balance aswell. If you want to get more players in alliances bring suggestions to make solo's WANT to play allied and quit solo mode for ally play, forcing somebody to do something they didn't enjoy in the first place or had other plans for that round might not keep them around since this is a game and a game is about enjoying yourself :)
Attacking allies is effort consuming in a game that already burns out many players in just the first few weeks or half round. Everybody or almost everybody enjoys attacking a player and have a 1:1 fight at least ocasionally.
Just saying this is alliance game remove all solo's it's not worth taking it serious, if you want it an alliance game take the parts that solo's bring into the game and implement them into alliance structure. At a quick thought what solo's have over allies atm:
more relaxed and casual game
not so much effort and frustration with attacks and defence
not bothered with some pricks in the alliance since in a team of 20 there is likely to be several of those
targets easyer to attack
your individual talent counts and you might feel better to play the game instead to follow the orders.
If you want solo's to want to play in an alliance come with ideas to make them feel like home in them ?

[Twigley]

I personally want easy targets

Ah.
;)

[Turnip2k]

Some of us have other things to do twigs :)

[BlackWolf]

I think all this solos vs allys talk is soo hilarious. You guys ever thought that those people you as solos get your acres from are also players playing this game? Why they deserve to die to your solo attacks when you go all over board for telling how allys this and allys that?

If there is no option to go solos... read no ar... who is forced to play in alliance? No one! It just means well you can play solo and die a lot or play in alliance and hope to die bit less. No one is forced to do anything. Its free world and you can go to play something else if you dont like bushtarion.

Simple fact is that solos are way overpowered in therms of activity vs ranks. Where some guy can be active 15 hours a day in alliance where others are 5 hours a day active... and some solo can beat him with 4hours a day activity.... its very hard to convince me thats the right way for this game to go.

You guys want relaxed gaming and ****... well then how bout instead of trying to force your solo opinions to others you consider options for you to play relaxed in alliance... That way all sides would win. Everyone would be allied... and everyone could play relaxed.

[Iamsmart]

Tbh a lowbee alliance dies more than a solo. :P

Its more of a choice, get in a top 5 alliance, get in a **** alliance and die everyday, go solo

:P

[willymchilybily]

@ willy

You are talking about a BRIBE that gives no insurance to the target and a shitload of profit to the briber. This kind of attack shouldn't come with 0 looses. Assmuming best case scenario with a big 0 land score on the thug player at 0 ar mod and assuming sirens get something like 1: 1.5 on tl's ( i think it might be higher not exactly sure) we get:

just quickly at max its 1.4, and t's kinda hurt sirens surprisingly well. ass soon as jeeps get involved and the reduced hitting ability due to sirens "bonus" againat machine vehicle, it does make a profit. infact it fails misserably. the puppet comes off okay make money. as his units are flaked by sirens. but the weak sirens they get a bruising. i have had to pump alot of funds into our puppet master to get him to where he is. But its all fun


And the 40% ar solo's are not worth it to attack is alot of rubbish. I made profit on solo's with over 50% ar and minimal overall looses even between 70 and 80 ar. Considering in just 2 days ar drops about 35% i find the current ar not providing much help to give solo's a chance to enjoy playing.


your RPG your route has a specifically designed enemy. and you have masssed rpgs. i see lots of targets i cant bounty hunt. because when they have been attacked and raped then left for ar to drop to 50-60% they get more incoming from people massing sa/tl's

they have massed a unit with a specific enemy so yeah they can bounty hunt like that. maybe its my route jack of all trades master of none.
well except maybe rpg killing. but with all the sa's and tl's being able to send with 50-60% ar and make profit they are beating me to it.

anyway, i think that sure at the moment it drops a bit quick. and yesthat can be a pain in the ass for some people. but so many of the people i rape havent sent any atacks out in >400ticks. so they have ahd no losses and so they have had no ar boost. just pure 0.12 per tick drop rate. thats thier problem.

as a solo u need to be active when online, and sleep when offline. If you cant do this as your solo cos ur only online 3-4 hrs a day, your bound to get raped and killed, and no change to the AR system will help you imo. And if your a robo. no matter your ar, route setup or anything like that. an rpg/striker/harrier will come for you and destroy you without triggering. nothing you can do. is all i was trying to say. (and if you see me coming. it means your ar has dropped far too much)

slash i came back to this thead because recently ive been triggering even with my usual margin of error, had there been any change in the last few days to ar? or am i just not looking closely enough at the attacks the target has sent out and if they ended up suiciding

[DarkSider]

ass soon as jeeps get involved and the reduced hitting ability due to sirens "bonus" againat machine vehicle, it does make a profit. infact it fails misserably.

The low ratio sirens get on jeeps have no impact on their ratio vs tl's, sirens fire proportional on jeeps and tl's so the only difference is you have less tl's to fire (if they would have in the first place) but some jeeps will make it. I agree the guy with sirens might take some casualties but if he volunteers to help a briber make huge profit (not talking just about $$$ but the quality and amount of the bribes) he can at least loose some sirens :P


About me or other tl/SA/rpg beeing able to kill players with high ar mod because we mass a unit type it's a bad reasoning and you can probably see why :)


"
so they have ahd no losses and so they have had no ar boost. just pure 0.12 per tick drop rate. thats thier problem.
"

Even if they attacked once in a while the ar gain from attacks is quite small, you have to not be bothered about loosing large chunks of your army to get noticeable ar boost, i think i got about 15% for getting myself wiped out in an attack :p


"
as a solo u need to be active when online, and sleep when offline. If you cant do this as your solo cos ur only online 3-4 hrs a day, your bound to get raped and killed, and no change to the AR system will help you imo.
"

Yes a solo online 3-4 h a day it's a recipe for disaster. Saying no change in ar system will help might not be accurate. Most of the solo's are casual players and not 24/7 online or in sleepmode. The playstyle you talk about applies to a small minority of all the solo's and often their activity will prevent them to take big looses anyway.


"
And if your a robo. no matter your ar, route setup or anything like that. an rpg/striker/harrier will come for you and destroy you without triggering. nothing you can do.
"

I agree to an extent. If you are a solo robot you should be destroyed by an rpg/striker/harrier at 0 or low ar mod. However you shouldn't be a farm at just 2 days after you've been wiped out and probably lost alot of land too.